268 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

Having watched the Sonoma Runnoffs from the grass at T2 near the flagging station, I'd say the 1.6 is NOT competitive.  He had to work twice as hard as the NBs behind him to keep P2 (or was it P3 already...) and not make any mistakes or suffer heat soak or let his tires get too hot.  The field of the next 4 or 5 NBs were on his bumper the entire race until finally the P3 NB was able to get a nose inside at T2 and he got freight trained.

 

Once an NB passed the 1.6, they were gone.  Once the NBs got passed the 1.6, driver talent opened gaps between them.  

 

Coming out of T2, the 1.6 was regularly challenged by the NBs behind him to get to T3.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you.. but exactly how do you know the 1.6 needed to work twice as hard?  And could not make any mistakes implying the NB could? that is absolutely incorrect btw..  You are throwing out opinions as fact...  

 

Btw since we are throwing out hypotheticals...  if you put the three drivers..  Chris Haldeman, Preston Pardus and Ken in the same car, same day.. what are the results in your opinion? I will say that 99% of  all SM drivers come out of a comparison with Chris and Preston not looking good. 

[Bench Racer]

Btw since we are throwing out hypotheticals...  if you put the three drivers..  Chris Haldeman, Preston Pardus and Ken in the same car, same day.. what are the results in your opinion? I will say that 99% of  all SM drivers come out of a comparison with Chris and Preston not looking good. 

Betting against the House, I'd say if the three were put in 1.6's for a race Ken and Chris would not finish third. I'd also bet Chris would not be in your 99%. At COTA your 99% stands tall. 

[OrangeCrush86]

Based on that, the real question is will Chris or Preston EVER drive a 1.6L at a Super Tour or the June Sprints and confirm your assumption? Maybe a wager for the rental cost of Advanced's top flight 1.6L? From what you are saying these drivers should be in the top 3 without question right; quite a safe wager? 

 

Of course this is all in jest, but I do hope to attend my first June Sprints this year with my overdog.

[Bench Racer]

A 1.6 is nothing new to Chris.

[Jim Drago]

Based on that, the real question is will Chris or Preston EVER drive a 1.6L at a Super Tour or the June Sprints and confirm your assumption? Maybe a wager for the rental cost of Advanced's top flight 1.6L? From what you are saying these drivers should be in the top 3 without question right; quite a safe wager? 

 

Of course this is all in jest, but I do hope to attend my first June Sprints this year with my overdog.

I didn't mention a 1.6 or any specific car.. just the same one   In the same one, any make model year.. be careful wagering against those two.. I have seen it first hand, many times

[Jamz14]

Meaning the answer to the question of "Do the 1.6s need help?" is the "NA8"?

Sure if that's what you got out of it.

[Brandon]

Sure if that's what you got out of it.

 

Ambiguous response is ambiguous.

So....good job?

 

WTF did you really mean with your comment?

[Steve Scheifler]

I took it as answering the “how?” question, the answer being to allow a retrofit of the early 1.8 engine. But don’t feel bad, I’ve had years to learn Jamz. Now if I could only learn to speak Bench... nah, life’s too short.

[gerglmuff2]

if power were the issue, a header is cheaper, easier, and probably would do it. 

i don't think power is the issue. your going to have run heavier in order to keep it from killing everyone out of the corners with more power/torque, basically making the NA6 into an NA8. i truly believe its a drag issue, as its mostly at the top end that the NA6 fades. let us trim the rear bumper, or obscure the front wheels better or something and i bet the NA6 matches the NBs on the straights better. 

[Steve Scheifler]

I’m not saying you are wrong, but your position is certainly different than what the highly vocal minority of 1.6 owners beat the drums about for over a decade.

Not that headers were the answer either. They are more likely to raise the entire power band, possibly more at the top end than the middle where they are weakest. So that doesn’t really make them like a 1.8, it arguably makes them more different. The point of the 1.8 retrofit idea was of course to make them exactly like an NA 1.8 so weight & plate adjustments could be simplified for all and effectively cull the weakest from the herd.

[Jamz14]

I took it as answering the “how?” question, the answer being to allow a retrofit of the early 1.8 engine. But don’t feel bad, I’ve had years to learn Jamz. Now if I could only learn to speak Bench... nah, life’s too short.

Dont forget to add 100 lbs to make it perfect.

[Steve Scheifler]

Dont forget to add 100 lbs to make it perfect.

No, just pull 100 from everything. Then we might stand a better chance against Drago. :-)

If an easy solution was possible we probably would have tripped over it somewhere along the line given the years of debate. Weight has always been the go-to simple fix but I’ve always been a proponent of starting with that as equal as possible because it impacts all key metrics. So if I were experimenting, I might in fact start with the header and more weight, ultimately pulling some weight from all cars and tweaking the plates. Not sure about eliminating the plates because in some ways they dull the benefits of cheating. But in the end it’s just too much trouble to start all over for the poor 1.6.

[Jamz14]

Sounds good. Standing by for 50 lbs removal on the na 1.8

[Jamz14]

Listen to what Steve is saying because it is true. If removing weight makes everything better, the inverse of adding weight makes EVERYTHING worse.

[Bench Racer]

Now if I could only learn to speak Bench... nah, life’s too short.

Aww, cut the crap Steve. I've known you longer than Jim and Jim has picked up the Bench speak.   NO, I'm not getting into this 1.6 sad song OrangCrush keeps singing. When a guy can run a lap of two with the big dogs it's time to sing the oh so sad song. You and Tom can sing the song, you've earned it.  

[gerglmuff2]

I’m not saying you are wrong, but your position is certainly different than what the highly vocal minority of 1.6 owners beat the drums about for over a decade.

Not that headers were the answer either. They are more likely to raise the entire power band, possibly more at the top end than the middle where they are weakest. So that doesn’t really make them like a 1.8, it arguably makes them more different. The point of the 1.8 retrofit idea was of course to make them exactly like an NA 1.8 so weight & plate adjustments could be simplified for all and effectively cull the weakest from the herd.

your not wrong, thats the problem with giving the 1.6 more power, there just isnt a great way to give it power where it needs it, without giving it more where you dont want it. maybe you could plate it down on the top end, but man, your band-aids on band-aids on band-aids at that point. 

mazda likely has the aero data we need, if someone asked them to dig it up. see if it is aero, and how to easily fix it, without having a bunch of butchered looking cars out there (i can see why mazda doesn't want us to cut up the shape too much). that all being said, that bottom under curl of the bumper doesn't effect the shape toooooo much .... 

[OrangeCrush86]

Aww, cut the crap Steve. I've known you longer than Jim and Jim has picked up the Bench speak.   NO, I'm not getting into this 1.6 sad song OrangCrush keeps singing. When a guy can run a lap of two with the big dogs it's time to sing the oh so sad song. You and Tom can sing the song, you've earned it.

 

Sad song? I honestly think the cars are as balanced as they will ever be all things considered. I have a ton of fun at regionals with my car.

 

What I don't agree with is that a 1.6L can win at the top level events (as far as I have found). In many ways this is a reflection of my aspiration to race at Majors/June Sprints and small time budget. I should of done more due diligence before buying an SM, because I would of went with an NB and avoided this entire conversation.

 

I trust the SMAC and they have done a good job, but at the same time an NA car will probably not win at Road America unless an NB agrees to push it around the entire track.

[Bench Racer]

I trust the SMAC and they have done a good job, but at the same time an NA car will probably not win at Road America unless an NB agrees to push it around the entire track.

ANYBODY, do we believe Todd Buras in a Drago prepped 1.6 would need to be pushed around Road America? Would Voytek need to be pushed around Road America in the Advanced 1.6? I'm sure there are some left coast 1.6's that wouldn't need to be pushed around Road America. It takes a wheelman to get the job done with a well prepped 1.6. As I'm typing IIRC the last time a well prepped 1.6 with a wheelman was at Road America it won the June Sprints. No question I was just as naïve in building a 1.6, but never had thoughts of being at the pointy end. Turned 77 Feb. 7th and have lost all interest in driving.

[Steve Scheifler]

OrangeCrush86, I’d like to solve your conundrum. I’m prepared to offer you the best deal ever on a truly top-build NB with only a couple test days and one race weekend since new. I might even take your 1.6 in trade.

Bench, your tune has certainly changed since deciding to take credit for saving the 1.6. How many times did you dismiss Buras’ win at the Sprints as a fluke where he never actually passed any NBs and ultimately just inherited the win?

I do believe it would be a little more difficult to win at Road America in a 1.6 than with an NB but it hardly requires being pushed all the way around. In a pack/drafting situation the 1.6 can absolutely hang in there but leading at the checker is what matters and with equal drivers my $$ might have to stay on the NB.

[OrangeCrush86]

OrangeCrush86, I’d like to solve your conundrum. I’m prepared to offer you the best deal ever on a truly top-build NB with only a couple test days and one race weekend since new. I might even take your 1.6 in trade.

Bench, your tune has certainly changed since deciding to take credit for saving the 1.6. How many times did you dismiss Buras’ win at the Sprints as a fluke where he never actually passed any NBs and ultimately just inherited the win?

I do believe it would be a little more difficult to win at Road America in a 1.6 than with an NB but it hardly requires being pushed all the way around. In a pack/drafting situation the 1.6 can absolutely hang in there but leading at the checker is what matters and with equal drivers my $$ might have to stay on the NB.

 

Pre-Black Friday I would of been interested in that offer, but I already have my new 1.6L drago motor sitting on a pallet waiting to go in. So despite my outlook here, I do in fact enjoy being an under (over) dog.