264 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

https://www.youtube....h?v=RKMNPQ35OUc
J~

[Jim Drago]

That's a very slippery slope.  I'm really surprised after your comments on Dale Jarrett that you'd say that.  IMO no intentional contact in order to improve/defend your position is ever acceptable.  (Worded to allow for bump drafting which is intentional contact per se.)

slippery yes.. but like porn, you know it when you see it.

Bumping someone off the track from the rear to intentionally push him off to take the spot.. Over the line by all but most dedicated Nascar fans.

Both cars touching, banging doors the last few corners or coming to the line with no one getting put off track.. "For Me" is racing and I am OK with it. Stewards may DQ etc, but I am not protesting anyone for that if I find myself on the losing end.

[MPR22]

slippery yes.. but like porn, you know it when you see it.

Bumping someone off the track from the rear to intentionally push him off to take the spot.. Over the line by all but most dedicated Nascar fans.

Both cars touching, banging doors the last few corners or coming to the line with no one getting put off track.. "For Me" is racing and I am OK with it. Stewards may DQ etc, but I am not protesting anyone for that if I find myself on the losing end.

At least everyone knows what to expect if they try to pass you at Daytona on the last lap.  

[Steve Scheifler]

Race Hero need more work to be where race monitor is now.

I don't think they should aspire to be a complete friggin mess.

Not sure if it's the system or the users, which still comes back to the system, but Race Monitor has gotten progressively worse in terms of how results are displayed. Nearly useless much of the time and almost always a pain.

[Todd Green]

Both cars touching, banging doors the last few corners or coming to the line with no one getting put off track.. "For Me" is racing and I am OK with it.

And guess what that escalates to (This all started from Sebring the previous year (IIRC) when a Ferrari made a rough pass on Bergmeister and the stewards did nothing.)

 

 

 

You cannot guarantee that your side by side rubbing won't result in something like this.  No ones health is worth winning a race IMO. 

[Johnny D]

And guess what that escalates to

https://www.youtube....h?v=BGLR25EJtfE

J~

[Jim Drago]

And guess what that escalates to (This all started from Sebring the previous year (IIRC) when a Ferrari made a rough pass on Bergmeister and the stewards did nothing.)
 
You cannot guarantee that your side by side rubbing won't result in something like this.  No ones health is worth winning a race IMO.

Apples and oranges..

[Todd Green]

Apples and oranges..

How so?  In the first vid you have a driver execute a clean pass only to have the passed car make side to side contact enough to get a narrow win with neither car having any real issues.  (Just like at VIR.)  So the next time this happened the driver said enough is enough and retaliated on track and it ended badly.  Are you arguing that isn't a possible outcome that if we endorse "rubbing is racing" that sooner or later it is going to end up pear shaped?  Add in the fact that this could be two mid pack cars, or backmarkers where the skill level isn't as high as at the front and it just gets worse.  Like it or not, people look up to you Jim.  If you are saying rubbin' is racing, some will take it to heart.  Some will not execute as well or make as good decisions (just read the other threads about people trying to bump draft and hitting people so hard they crack diffs etc.).  IMO erring on the side of caution and advocating keeping it clean would be wise. 

 

Of course these are all just opinions and everyone is entitled to their own.

 

Also to beat a dead horse and play Devil's Advocate, the rules do say you only have to give 3/4 of a car width.  Technically Palermo was within the rules (in Drennan's case) and this is yet another example why that rule should be rewritten.  I can only imagine the shite storm that would have erupted had he not punted Blake and had passed tech.

[LarryKing]

The side-to-side slam is also known as a "Drissi"

[Jim Drago]

How so?  In the first vid you have a driver execute a clean pass only to have the passed car make side to side contact enough to get a narrow win with neither car having any real issues.  (Just like at VIR.)  So the next time this happened the driver said enough is enough and retaliated on track and it ended badly.  Are you arguing that isn't a possible outcome that if we endorse "rubbing is racing" that sooner or later it is going to end up pear shaped?  Add in the fact that this could be two mid pack cars, or backmarkers where the skill level isn't as high as at the front and it just gets worse.  Like it or not, people look up to you Jim.  If you are saying rubbin' is racing, some will take it to heart.  Some will not execute as well or make as good decisions (just read the other threads about people trying to bump draft and hitting people so hard they crack diffs etc.).  IMO erring on the side of caution and advocating keeping it clean would be wise. 
 
Of course these are all just opinions and everyone is entitled to their own.
 
Also to beat a dead horse and play Devil's Advocate, the rules do say you only have to give 3/4 of a car width.  Technically Palermo was within the rules (in Drennan's case) and this is yet another example why that rule should be rewritten.  I can only imagine the shite storm that would have erupted had he not punted Blake and had passed tech.

We will agree to disagree. As soon as Blake was put off, Palermo was over the line and should have been penalized. I think you are stretching my position a bit. I stick by what I said. I think my record speaks for itself on what I am willing and unwilling to do. I don't believe in body slamming,punting or putting some one off the track. But if there is incidental contact on the last lap due to hard racing of two drivers racing for the win, regardless of of who initiated it, or who was at "fault" I have no issue with it. That is just my opinion and how I race, you don't have to agree or approve, but I have no apologies to make either.

[Danny Steyn]

Jim Drago- I personally disagree wholeheartedly with your position.

If I was leading out of Hogpen, and you had the run on me. I would defend my line but I would NEVER block you, rub against you or try to slow you down.

If you have the run you deserve the win, my bad that I did not do enough to pull away from you.

This is how I will race you and race anyone around me.

Just sayin

[Danny Steyn]

And here is a video from Duncan Ellis showing just how bad it go in Turn 1 in QR1. I counted almost 20 cars off in T1

 

[Pat Ross]

After a few days to cool off I have the following comments about last weekend and suggestions.

1. I still believe that for the drivers safety NASA should have immediately thrown the red flag when they saw multiple cars off track and in vulnerable positions. I am still amazed that someone didn't get seriously injured. Just throwing the double yellow did not slow those entering the "kill zone" sufficiently.

2. Those four drivers that were picked up by a second pace car got screwed by the NASA officiating crew. Why did they send a second pace car out??? Because they perceived that the situation was extremely dangerous in the "kill zone" and wanted to slow these cars before they went through hog pen and while they could be slowed down to a safe speed. This reinforces my opinion that a prudent NASA should have immediately red flagged the race.

3. Based on the NASA official's comments at the Spec Miata driver's meeting NASA was "Hell bent" on making the race official by running at least 50% of the time scheduled, even if it meant running multiple laps under yellow while wreckers were trying to rescue stranded racers. What if someone had been seriously injured (no one could see sufficiently to determine if every one was ok). I know I spent many minutes seriously concerned about Mike's safety.
4. Suggestion: NASA should define how the race would be scored if a situation like this occurs in the future. Either revert to the last lap scored, or substitute qualifying for the qualifying race. To me the officials need this guidance since they were not able to think rapidly under pressure of the situation. As you can see, I am still not willing to give those in controll a "pass". They have the drivers lives in their hands.

[Ron Alan]

Top 6 fastest wet times from qual race 1
Cefalo 2:30.731
Haldeman 2:31.158
Clements. 2:31.247
Palermo. 2:31.275
Steyn. 2:31.372
McCallion 2:31.?

I saw this which is why i questioned how the results were posted on Racehero! So it sounds like it was a racehero problem! Makes sense now!

[Ron Alan]

After a few days to cool off I have the following comments about last weekend and suggestions.

1. I still believe that for the drivers safety NASA should have immediately thrown the red flag when they saw multiple cars off track and in vulnerable positions. I am still amazed that someone didn't get seriously injured. Just throwing the double yellow did not slow those entering the "kill zone" sufficiently.

2. Those four drivers that were picked up by a second pace car got screwed by the NASA officiating crew. Why did they send a second pace car out??? Because they perceived that the situation was extremely dangerous in the "kill zone" and wanted to slow these cars before they went through hog pen and while they could be slowed down to a safe speed. This reinforces my opinion that a prudent NASA should have immediately red flagged the race.

3. Based on the NASA official's comments at the Spec Miata driver's meeting NASA was "Hell bent" on making the race official by running at least 50% of the time scheduled, even if it meant running multiple laps under yellow while wreckers were trying to rescue stranded racers. What if someone had been seriously injured (no one could see sufficiently to determine if every one was ok). I know I spent many minutes seriously concerned about Mike's safety.
4. Suggestion: NASA should define how the race would be scored if a situation like this occurs in the future. Either revert to the last lap scored, or substitute qualifying for the qualifying race. To me the officials need this guidance since they were not able to think rapidly under pressure of the situation. As you can see, I am still not willing to give those in controll a "pass". They have the drivers lives in their hands.

Take one look at Duncans video and tell me this incident should have not immediately gone red! He does a 360 in the video and there are cars in every frame!!! He misses a serious head on by shear luck!

 

IMO...NASA race control made a VERY POOR judgement in live time and a VERY POOR decision post race, 

 

You are right on the money Pat! 

[Ron Alan]

 

 

With Drennan, the jerking and weaving of the wheel wasn't acceptable, but moving over, squeezing him at the line, even touching before the line to slow his progress..  That's racing IMO.  

 

 

Jim Drago, on 07 Sept 2015 - 4:51 PM, said:

Had mark moved over it would have been a crash that ended all of their races

 

Its either acceptable anytime...or its not acceptable. Which is it?

[Ron Alan]

Palermo's intentional contact not only nearly wrecked both of them but stopped Marks run completely! He would have easily taken the win by a car length at the flag. Driving down the middle of the track and then reacting to which way the car behind you moves is bush league...its not racing...its blocking!

[Danny Steyn]

The first 20 seconds of Ryan Fisher's video give a great angle on the carnage at the start of the Championship Race. WTF

 

[LarryKing]

25:18 https://www.youtube....h?v=3DFX1R15IAw

 

SCCA Pro says it's a no no.

[Jim Drago]

Jim Drago- I personally disagree wholeheartedly with your position.
If I was leading out of Hogpen, and you had the run on me. I would defend my line but I would NEVER block you, rub against you or try to slow you down.
If you have the run you deserve the win, my bad that I did not do enough to pull away from you.
This is how I will race you and race anyone around me.
Just sayin

And how I have always raced you, Just sayin
At a championship race, incidental contact by someone going for the win is not going upset me if I am beat that way, nor would I file a protest against it. That is all I am saying. If there is a gap and you think you may get into the side of my car and not put me off the track to win any race we are in, YOU TAKE IT! You need not make any apologies to me for it. You have my permission, incidental contact ok.. just don't put me off.

Ron..
Thought I was clear, obviously not.. Anything that ends ones race, crashes someone, body damage more than a tire mark, puts someone off the track.. ALL NOT OK.. Descretion descretion descretion...

Incidental contact passing or going for the win at the line.. I am telling you now, regardless of your opinion or anyone on this forum.. I am racing for the win, However I would NEVER intentionally endanger anyone's safety, PERIOD!Have never done so in 12 years, don't plan on starting now.
If I have put someone off or damaged their car in the past and felt it was my fault, I have apologized and even helped with the repair of cars in a few cases.