264 replies to this topic

[Ron Alan]

I do understand what you are saying Jim...completely!  Side by side contact(incidental) in a corner...turn in, apex, or track out among 2 competent drivers that doesnt result in a gain for either is part of racing and rarely intentional! Hard racing!

 

 Leaning on someone going in a straight line in an obvious attempt to slow them via contact or force them off track I dont consider "incidental". I actually dont think you would have done what Palermo did. Nor do I think you would have taken the win this way. 

 

Zero issue with your position and how you race...I think we just differ in this particular situation on were the line is crossed. Granted...the contact 200yds before the line didn't result in a crash(had they touched tires in a different fashion all bets are off!)but it absolutely changed the outcome! For this reason in this instance "hard racing" turned into a huge advantage...line crossed...no pun intended

[mglobe]

I think this may be my first post here despite reading for a long time. I'm a perennial mid pack guy and at my age (60) I don't know how much that will improve regardless of my efforts. I never get to see what happens up from cause I'm 20 cars back, and having just as much fun. I know both Blake and Hernan and get on just fine with both of them. Hernan and I share the same great guys for race support.

I know Hernan's engine builder, and you won't find a better guy. He's published an apology for his error on FB, and I know 100% that he means it. Anyone else who knows him would feel the same.

I'm not going to get into the right and wrong of the on-track incident. It's been covered fully. But I will say that it's VERY important to guys like me who drive in the kill zone that the front runners have the discussion that's going on, and that they set the right example/tone for the series. What is deemed as acceptable at the front of the pack will set the example for us not so fast guys further back. I want P19 rather than P20 in a race as much as the fast guys want to win. And I want to know that the I'm racing and I have a clear understanding of what is ok, and what is not.

FWIW from my mid-pack view, the 3/4 of a car width rule encourages contact that results in offs and wrecks. I just can't understand how you can leave 3/4 and not cause wrecks that don't need to happen. A full car width rule to me helps the situation. And I'm ok with Drago's comment that minor contact while side by side in a turn is acceptable in SM.

My $.02

Thanks to all who have made constructive comments.

[FTodaro]

I think Aggressive driving (contact that does not put you off) should be expected on the last lap, for the win. Not so much mid pack and mid race. I think the discussion is good so that some of the new drivers and Mid Pack drivers understand this is not a demo derby. 

 

BTW while I am posting on this race I have to say, that Blake got a raw deal, and he has been a total professional about it, not bitching and wining. Blake I respected you before this weekend and even more now. Way to set a good example we need more of it.

[Joe Cooley]

That video of the 7 kajillion Miatas off in turn 1 is scary.  Shocked it didn't turn out worse.  

 

I do understand what you are saying Jim...completely!  Side by side contact(incidental) in a corner...turn in, apex, or track out among 2 competent drivers that doesnt result in a gain for either is part of racing and rarely intentional! Hard racing!

 

 Leaning on someone going in a straight line in an obvious attempt to slow them via contact or force them off track I dont consider "incidental". I actually dont think you would have done what Palermo did. Nor do I think you would have taken the win this way. 

 

Zero issue with your position and how you race...I think we just differ in this particular situation on were the line is crossed. Granted...the contact 200yds before the line didn't result in a crash(had they touched tires in a different fashion all bets are off!)but it absolutely changed the outcome! For this reason in this instance "hard racing" turned into a huge advantage...line crossed...no pun intended

 

It's not like we haven't seen poor outcomes of aggressive driving down a straight recently.  The Ferrari Challenge wreck at Road America where they were kind enough to remove all that ugly old catch fencing with a 430 so they could put shiny new fencing in for the ARCA race......  

 

Side by side in a turn a little nudging because cars are moving around mid corner is fine by me but down the straight isn't cool especially in amateur racing.   

[Todd Lamb]

In a rare moment, I have to disagree with Drago.

I will race anyone the way they race me. Race me clean, it is unlikely we will have contact. Start beating and banging and you'll get the worst end of it.

Most of us at the front know who the "cheap shot" drivers are and we treat them accordingly. Fortunately, there are very few on my list, from SM all the way up to IMSA/World Challenge.

As for the pro stuff - none of the series I've raced in condoned rough driving. However, most let the teams/drivers sort it out. I can tell you that if a driver starts tearing up $1M race cars they won't last very long with a team unless they have deeeeeeep pockets. And there are plenty of deep pockets in IMSA.

[Jamz14]

I think Aggressive driving (contact that does not put you off) should be expected on the last lap, for the win. Not so much mid pack and mid race. I think the discussion is good so that some of the new drivers and Mid Pack drivers understand this is not a demo derby. 

 

BTW while I am posting on this race I have to say, that Blake got a raw deal, and he has been a total professional about it, not bitching and wining. Blake I respected you before this weekend and even more now. Way to set a good example we need more of it.

Frank, this is condescending. Like the mid pack guys need the "pointy end guys" to explain to us that we don't run demo derby. Like you guys are never involved or the cause.  Is my point that the guys at the front are bad? NO!!!! The point is we are adults behind you too and being the fastest doesn't make you anymore capable of understanding proper behavior. I have seen plenty of bad behavior at the front.

[davew]

Only when there is a mechanical breakage, do the cars crash themselves.

 

99.9% of the time, the driver made the car crash

[38bfast]

IMHO any side by side contact is not acceptable. The rules state this, its very clear. Contact shows disrespect to your fellow driver. My best races have been racing lap after lap within mm and never touching. But to do that you need two drivers to cooperate and have a mutual respect. and if contact occurs each driver is falling over himself to apologies to each other. Makes racing fun. 

 

Probably one of the biggest expense in SM racing is crash damage. I don't know anyone that likes fixing a bent car. 

[davew]

Well said, ralph

[Danny Steyn]

Expecting side by side contact and accepting it, IMO is just pure BS

 

First off, while we are racing to win, what we are really doing is working hard to earn the respect of our fellow drivers. And blocking another driver earns you ZERO RESPECT EVER.

 

I would love to see SCCA and NASA adopt Indy Car's (and now IMSA's) definition of BLOCKING. If you move in anticipation of a passing attempt, you are defending and you are good. If you move in response to a passing attempt, you are BLOCKING and that is not good.

 

As I said in my comment to Drago above, if you have a run on me, I will take what I believe to be the preferred line to defend my position, but I will not move to block you or rub you ever. 

 

In terms of earning respect, there are two races that really stand out for me. One was the 2011 ARRC where Alex Bolanos and I drove side by side from T10A, through T10B down the main straight, through T1 all with mirrors touching but with no contact. And more recently the race Todd Lamb and I had in the rain at the 2015 June Sprints, where we went side by side through MANY turns, and MANY straights, on a wet track and never touched. There were many times that Todd could have moved over on me to block my run, and visa versa, but neither of us want to win a race that way, even on the last lap. 

[FTodaro]

Frank, this is condescending. Like the mid pack guys need the "pointy end guys" to explain to us that we don't run demo derby. Like you guys are never involved or the cause.  Is my point that the guys at the front are bad? NO!!!! The point is we are adults behind you too and being the fastest doesn't make you anymore capable of understanding proper behavior. I have seen plenty of bad behavior at the front.

Was not meant to be condescending as i consider my self in majors a mid pack guy. From my personal experience, i have seen many mistakes in the middle of the pack, many times attributable to over aggressive driving for 15th place. Just My opinion.

 

Which by the way we should be able to express on the forum even if others disagree with it.

 

I am surprised at the outrage of side to side contact, with out a little bit more of a definition, I am talking about unintentional contact, not intentional contact.  I can see a situation on the last lap where you are driving your hardest to win, i could see a situation were you may push a little harder for the win, Two by two in the corner, i think the risk for touching goes up, and touching happens, I am not talking about intentional running someone over.

[mglobe]

Two by two in the corner, i think the risk for touching goes up, and touching happens, I am not talking about intentional running someone over.

I'm talking about the same thing. I don't ever want to make contact. Ever. But if I'm side by side with someone, and the margin for error is such that unintentional contact happens, that's not horrible. If on the other hand, someone gets beside me and tries to drive me off the track, I'm going to tech to talk about it. I think this is the same thing Drago is saying, isn't it?

[Todd Green]

IMHO any side by side contact is not acceptable. The rules state this, its very clear.

 

I agree with your first statement, but we're talking NASA's (not SCCA's) rules which clearly do NOT state this:

 

25.4.2 Punting

If adequate racing room is left for the trailing car, and there is incidental contact made between
the cars, the contact will be considered “side-to-side.” In most cases, incidental side-to-side contact is
considered to be “just a racing incident.” If, in the case of side-to-side contact, one of the two cars leaves the
racing surface (involuntarily) then it may still be considered “a racing incident.”

[Todd Green]

 What is deemed as acceptable at the front of the pack will set the example for us not so fast guys further back. I want P19 rather than P20 in a race as much as the fast guys want to win. And I want to know that the I'm racing and I have a clear understanding of what is ok, and what is not.

 

Race me clean, it is unlikely we will have contact. Start beating and banging and you'll get the worst end of it.

Jim these are the exact two points I was trying to make to you that you wanted to "agree to disagree" with.

[Keith Andrews]

https://www.youtube....h?v=5xYd7DT3Y8M

 

Go to the pass at 17:10

[Joe Cooley]

https://www.youtube....h?v=5xYd7DT3Y8M

 

Go to the pass at 17:10

 

Floppy hard top?  Big hood gap?  Something else?

[chris haldeman]

Hood,fender,frame rail,bumper ,and headlight all smashed in qual race one crash. Hardtop rear strap cracked and broke too nobody noticed the top bracket till watching that video. Rear is now bolted down for scca runoffs. Scca just released a rule stating it is mandatory too use either the rear Frankenstein bolts or a standard bolt replacement.

[chris haldeman]

Top took a hit from something and broke strap. Just glad the top didn't get tore off

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[MPR22]

 
Go to the pass at 17:10

I was in the DRS zone and within 1.0 seconds. Totally legal. Lol

As Chris said I watched that video and saw the flapping hard top and told him to check the brackets. Happy we didn't lose the hardtop along with all the other damage to the car.

[David L]

What was up with that block attempt at roughly 18:40?