264 replies to this topic

[Randy Wolfgram]

Thanks for posting your video, Blake.  I think it's great when the guys at the front have the opportunity to share what's going on inside their car.  As a guy just getting started, I'm always amazed at how calm you guys are and how relaxed your hands seem while the car looks like it's pretty free.  Quick question regarding racing etiquette and by asking, I'm in no way questioning anything that was done on the track, just want to learn.   On the last lap coming up the hill out of Oak Tree when Blake and Hernan are hooked up in a two car train trying to catch Drennan, would it have been acceptable for Mark to move over to his left to try to stay in front?  Hard to tell from the video, but it looks like he starts to and then holds his line before getting all the way over so want to understand if that was an etiquette thing or if maybe he didn't think he could get there in time?

[Parity]

17.5 my best

Sent you a PM

[Jim Drago]

Thanks for posting your video, Blake.  I think it's great when the guys at the front have the opportunity to share what's going on inside their car.  As a guy just getting started, I'm always amazed at how calm you guys are and how relaxed your hands seem while the car looks like it's pretty free.  Quick question regarding racing etiquette and by asking, I'm in no way questioning anything that was done on the track, just want to learn.   On the last lap coming up the hill out of Oak Tree when Blake and Hernan are hooked up in a two car train trying to catch Drennan, would it have been acceptable for Mark to move over to his left to try to stay in front?  Hard to tell from the video, but it looks like he starts to and then holds his line before getting all the way over so want to understand if that was an etiquette thing or if maybe he didn't think he could get there in time?

Had mark moved over it would have been a crash that ended all of their races

[Randy Wolfgram]

Had mark moved over it would have been a crash that ended all of their races

 

Thanks, Jim.  So as the car in front on a track with the draft, you are pretty much a sitting duck, assuming the cars behind you work together, which I'm assuming they would in most cases?

[mdavis]

Thanks, Jim.  So as the car in front on a track with the draft, you are pretty much a sitting duck, assuming the cars behind you work together, which I'm assuming they would in most cases?

Here's a little wink, wink for ya.  The guys in the front know that if they try and pull out before the last lap or try some crazy ass pass before the end they're gonna get caught by those of us battling in the kill zone.   Take a look at Danny's video from Daytona.

[john mueller]

I'm thoroughly confused by this post..... Let me start by saying I do like John, however......

 

One of the great things about NASA is that it seems as though it is a dictatorship and if Jerry and team decide that someone is not a good fit for their organization then they are out.... Plane and simple.  John.... why wouldn't you drop the hammer with regard to penalties for the drivers causing the issues that are making you want to now run another class.  I promise you after drop kicking a few bad apples, sh&% will get cleaned up very quickly. 

 

What am I missing here?

 

Sean

 

 

Your're missing how it actually works.

 

The NASA National Series Directors are mainly responsible for the rules and growing the car counts.  We are sometimes brought in on individual incidents to give our opinion.  NASA has a very clear line between those who run the events and those who support classes...  It may not be 100% perfect but that's how it is.  Some Nat Dir's also carry Race Director roles so they will have direct involvement in penalties and such but I don't do that and have no desire to.  Nevertheless, I do agree that stiffer penalties need to be levied and enforced and as you say NASA can HAMMER HARD and have (ask your fellow SMAC members, one has felt it once).

 

I am not aware of any systems that exist that are used to track "on track behavior issues" between NASA & SCCA.  I would support such a database/

[amolaver]

i'll post video once i get the data integrated and have some free time - probably next weekend if i'm realistic.  had a lot of fun and got to hang out and run with the cool kids.  friday's mess (really danny, so sorry) kind of stunk up the joint, but the weather was insane.  its common at VIR to have part of the track wet/rain and dry others, but T1 was a cat5 hurricane and i could have tanned at south bend / oak tree.  the various videos that will inevitably get posted speak for themselves - T1 looked like a yard sale made up of only miatas and i think given the situation, it could have been much worse.  i think only one car was unable to run (gray in color, rear damage) afterwards. 

 

the big race...  some people to feel bad for - victims of crazy (danny and i'm guessing others from the same incident) and a little too much red mist (blake, especially since it sounds like the punter didn't pass tech anyway, duncan who could/should have been battling at the front and has been the class of our field since returning from CA), mechanicals (charbs i think, i'm sure others) - and others to stand back and admire.  alex's run in the big race was monstrous - i honestly do not know how he cut through the entire field like that with relatively little green time. the two young locals (Fisher + Henderson) ran awesome races with Henderson making up 30+ positions i believe (2nd only to alex in # of positions gained) and both finishing in the top 6 (Henderson 4, Fisher 6).  despite blake finishing third officially, i think its hard to say anything other than that he had it when it mattered and probably should have been on the top step - i'm sure he's PO'd (rightfully i believe) and dissapointed, but he really put a clinic on.  for drennan to show up and be on that pace is insane to me - mega hat tip to you sir and congratulations! 

 

because of my incident friday, i started much farther back than i would have liked (18th), but managed to get up to 9th on track (8th after tech).  the fast guys were, no surprise, fast.  it was a LOT of fun to run with so many talented and dedicated (and FAST) folks.  i'm not sure how many folks usually have their family at their normal events, but i don't, so it was a HUGE rush to have my dad, brother, wife, and older son there.  thank you for coming!

 

i guess i really just want to thank everyone who made the trip and got out there and competed.  its the nature of racing that the majority of the field is going to be dissapointed if they are only looking at the results sheet, but i think the vast majority of those there understand that this is supposed to be fun.  challenging?  absolutely.  dissapointing?  many more times than not.  fun?  every. damn. time.

 

ahm

[suck fumes]

Your're missing how it actually works.

The NASA National Series Directors are mainly responsible for the rules and growing the car counts. We are sometimes brought in on individual incidents to give our opinion. NASA has a very clear line between those who run the events and those who support classes... It may not be 100% perfect but that's how it is. Some Nat Dir's also carry Race Director roles so they will have direct involvement in penalties and such but I don't do that and have no desire to. Nevertheless, I do agree that stiffer penalties need to be levied and enforced and as you say NASA can HAMMER HARD and have (ask your fellow SMAC members, one has felt it once).

I am not aware of any systems that exist that are used to track "on track behavior issues" between NASA & SCCA. I would support such a database/

AI/CMC has a sh^* list of drivers that have history of incidents and we post it publicly with our group. If someone gets so many incidents then the Hammer comes down on them.....suspension etc. pretty good system

[Danny Steyn]

Here is a video that NONE of you would EVER have predicted. Thanks Andrew for your help over the weekend - you were great

 

[Todd Lamb]

"Help"

The only plausible explanation is that he was told he could use the car to make a beer run, so he wanted as much room as possible in the trunk.

[tony senese]

I am amazed sometimes how much second guessing goes on here by folks who were not there, NASA did a great job, certainly one of the best I have seen in the last 10 years of this championship, but we started doing a self review almost as soon as the event started.  We want happy customers, but we can't make everyone happy... after all we all are whiny racers who want to win every time we race and are looking for every advantage we can get, including formats that favor our style...

 

John M. has always taken criticism constructively and passed on lots of input to make stuff better, but NASA ISN"T SCCA, and it is certainly not a democracy.

 

AND, it is pretty successful.....

 

I'm just saying.....

[Sean - MiataCage]

 

 

I am not aware of any systems that exist that are used to track "on track behavior issues" between NASA & SCCA.  I would support such a database/

 

Gotcha..... Thanks. 

 

I might get this wrong, but Brian can correct it when he reads this......  For what it is worth Brian G at Motorsports Reg has built such a database that some in Northern California use. I think right now it is mostly HPDE day groups at this point.  However, It allows for event coordinators (HPDE) or Stewards to input comments into the Motrosports Reg database that only Stewards or event organizers can see that could give a Steward information that would show a past pattern from specific drivers.  Brian tells me that several HPDE day groups use it and can be proactive about drivers meetings or discussions with certain drivers prior to an event or even not allowing entry to repetitive troublesome drivers.  The intent as I understand it is to simply understand patterns.  In areas with huge car counts it seems to me that it could be a very valuable tool.

 

I think he has made it pretty simple to operate..... Either I-pad on site or comment entry after the event from paper records.  If I recall correclty there are some drop down categories for level of contact.  I think it can be as simple as things like incidental contact front to rear, side to side, intentional punt, pass under yellow,etc, etc.  If an event coordinator or Steward has an issue with a car or driver they can pull a historical report on that log book/driver.  8 Entries, 7 circumstances of contact etc.  There would not need to be anything recorded that is not already being recorded at an event, but it sure would be nice to have a historical snapshot like out of an Electronic Log Book.

 

There are a ton of reasons why some organizations won't like this, but it is my understanding that something does exist.

 

Thanks.... Sean

[Parity]

I am amazed sometimes how much second guessing goes on here by folks who were not there, NASA did a great job, certainly one of the best I have seen in the last 10 years of this championship, but we started doing a self review almost as soon as the event started.  We want happy customers, but we can't make everyone happy... after all we all are whiny racers who want to win every time we race and are looking for every advantage we can get, including formats that favor our style...

 

John M. has always taken criticism constructively and passed on lots of input to make stuff better, but NASA ISN"T SCCA, and it is certainly not a democracy.

 

AND, it is pretty successful.....

 

I'm just saying.....

Tony,

 

Thanks for your efforts this weekend as you obviously had your hands full. I was one of the slower cars Danny mentions who benefited from the format. I probably would have started 30th or back but due to the rain race got a chance to move up. Ended up starting 19th on Sunday and tried to make the best of it. Consequently got a chance to run with faster guys and ended up 16th. I guess any format can have shortcomings based on what actually happens during the race. Like any other big race there will be criticism and some is deserved but overall it was a great event for me. 

 

Thanks for your effort

[Danny Steyn]

Tony Senes, Xavier Calderon - you two are EXACTLY what Spec Miata needs to flourish. From the moment we arrived, you guys were inclusive, you asked us our opinion, and you welcomed our feedback, even when it wasn't exactly what you wanted to here.

 

Apart from a few minor issues within your control and several which had nothing to do with you or NASA, the event was run in an exemplary fashion. I have nothing but respect and admiration for the two of you on how you and your team conducted the event. 

 

Thank you on behalf of all Spec Miata drivers

[Ron Alan]

Tony...since you were there...can you shed light on any discussions to the Friday qual race? I assume the cloudburst at turn 1 came and went quiclkly? Had the water dissipated by the time cars came around a 2nd time? 

 

So often the first couple cars to find a bad situation(massive water, debris, dirt, etc)react to late or cant possible recognize what has happened. Cars behind have the vision to see what is happening in front of them and have more of a chance to recognize the situation. I'm sure a yellow flag was waiving like crazy the minute Danny started floating...but the fact this one act of nature affected SO MANY cars in a matter of seconds...

 

Was there any consideration given to a black flag all or red? Allow cars to re grid in the pit as they had crossed the stripe pre lake? Crazy this dump of water seemed to happen after all cars had passed and were coming around completely unaware. Water was certainly not a NASA fault...and thank god only a little bent sheet metal. But a large percentage of cars sent off by Mother Nature in what was/is clearly an unforeseen situation might have necessitated a replacement of positions?

[Duane Polsley]

 by Mother Nature in what was/is clearly an unforeseen situation might have necessitated a replacement of positions?

 

What Mother Nature does is part of racing. It sucks for those that got caught up in it but how do you reset the field in a timely fashion and allow the race to restart? By the time everyone got lined up the checkered flag would be out.

That scenario would cause a shitstorm in the paddock in my opinion.

[MPR22]

Tony...since you were there...can you shed light on any discussions to the Friday qual race? I assume the cloudburst at turn 1 came and went quiclkly? Had the water dissipated by the time cars came around a 2nd time? 

 

So often the first couple cars to find a bad situation(massive water, debris, dirt, etc)react to late or cant possible recognize what has happened. Cars behind have the vision to see what is happening in front of them and have more of a chance to recognize the situation. I'm sure a yellow flag was waiving like crazy the minute Danny started floating...but the fact this one act of nature affected SO MANY cars in a matter of seconds...

 

Was there any consideration given to a black flag all or red? Allow cars to re grid in the pit as they had crossed the stripe pre lake? Crazy this dump of water seemed to happen after all cars had passed and were coming around completely unaware. Water was certainly not a NASA fault...and thank god only a little bent sheet metal. But a large percentage of cars sent off by Mother Nature in what was/is clearly an unforeseen situation might have necessitated a replacement of positions?

Ron, 

 

You are hitting on the exact situation that dad is frustrated with.  At the time of the incident we had not met NASA's requirement to call it a complete race.  The decision to send cars around under double yellow until such time that the race would be official is a bit dubious.  The conditions were worsening not getting better during the double yellow.  The track was almost undriveable due to ponds forming in the low areas.  By the time I got pulled out of the gravel trap and made my way around the track I had to travel 20 mph and hit so many deep 6" + rivers i could barely keep the car on the track.  Only reason to circle under double yellow was to get the race to be official.  There was zero chance another green lap was going to be turned with 5 to 6 cars stuck in the gravel trap.  I would hope the officials would make a better decision next time and get cars off the track as fast as possible with that many cars involved.  

[MPR22]

What Mother Nature does is part of racing. It sucks for those that got caught up in it but how do you reset the field in a timely fashion and allow the race to restart? By the time everyone got lined up the checkered flag would be out.

That scenario would cause a shitstorm in the paddock in my opinion.

NASA's written procedure is to revert to finishing position of the last completed lap. Since they went under double yellow that lap counted.  If they needed to black flag they would have used the previous lap.  If they stopped early it would not have counted and they would grid race 2 as if race 1 never happened and go by qualifying times.  I believe the officials didn't want the shit storm previously mentioned so they let the race continue under double yellow until they hit the time, then they black flagged the field.  What isn't being said on here that was really screwed up was there were 4 cars that were picked up by a second pace car on the track they got the black flag before they crossed the SF line and were counted a lap short even though they were really in the 20's on the track. This put them behind several people who were stuck in the gravel and were not circulating.  This was never rectified properly in my opinion.  

[mhiggins10]

Ron, 

 

You are hitting on the exact situation that dad is frustrated with.  At the time of the incident we had not met NASA's requirement to call it a complete race.  The decision to send cars around under double yellow until such time that the race would be official is a bit dubious.  The conditions were worsening not getting better during the double yellow.  The track was almost undriveable due to ponds forming in the low areas.  By the time I got pulled out of the gravel trap and made my way around the track I had to travel 20 mph and hit so many deep 6" + rivers i could barely keep the car on the track.  Only reason to circle under double yellow was to get the race to be official.  There was zero chance another green lap was going to be turned with 5 to 6 cars stuck in the gravel trap.  I would hope the officials would make a better decision next time and get cars off the track as fast as possible with that many cars involved.  

WEC red-flagged it at COTA last year, though this is obviously a slightly different situation (they had hours to run, etc.)

 

[Brian Ghidinelli]

Gotcha..... Thanks. 

 

I might get this wrong, but Brian can correct it when he reads this......  For what it is worth Brian G at Motorsports Reg has built such a database that some in Northern California use. I think right now it is mostly HPDE day groups at this point.  However, It allows for event coordinators (HPDE) or Stewards to input comments into the Motrosports Reg database that only Stewards or event organizers can see that could give a Steward information that would show a past pattern from specific drivers.  Brian tells me that several HPDE day groups use it and can be proactive about drivers meetings or discussions with certain drivers prior to an event or even not allowing entry to repetitive troublesome drivers.  The intent as I understand it is to simply understand patterns.  In areas with huge car counts it seems to me that it could be a very valuable tool.

 

I think he has made it pretty simple to operate..... Either I-pad on site or comment entry after the event from paper records.  If I recall correclty there are some drop down categories for level of contact.  I think it can be as simple as things like incidental contact front to rear, side to side, intentional punt, pass under yellow,etc, etc.  If an event coordinator or Steward has an issue with a car or driver they can pull a historical report on that log book/driver.  8 Entries, 7 circumstances of contact etc.  There would not need to be anything recorded that is not already being recorded at an event, but it sure would be nice to have a historical snapshot like out of an Electronic Log Book.

 

There are a ton of reasons why some organizations won't like this, but it is my understanding that something does exist.

 

Thanks.... Sean

 

Correct, MotorsportReg.com has had this electronic logbook in place for a decade and there are thousands and thousands of entries. The categories are configurable so where "instructor feedback" makes sense for an HPDE, race organizations use "contact", "black flag", "tech failure", etc.  

 

A system like this can serve as a helpful data point - is there a recent trend in a driver's history to be involved in more contact?  Is this the 1st or 4th time they've been penalized for tech? It wouldn't tell you thumbs up or thumbs down, but would provide more context for race officials when considering a situation to get the call right.