97 replies to this topic

[Jim Suhr]

My view from the start to to hit on the back straight..  Sorry Kyle - I had traffic on both sides.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=_IGlASmwDyM

[Keith Andrews]

Damn!  That was ugly.  It looked like it was Kyle's fault.

[FTodaro]

Damn!  That was ugly.  It looked like it was Kyle's fault.

I don't think so, If you go back to post 71 or 72, Tom's video is the following car, it looks like Kyle is keeping a straight line and the cars are going 3 wide at that point and the get together. i would consider it a racing incident, of 3 cars trying to occupy the same part of the track.

[Dave Metz]

An awful lot of carnage regardless. Too bad.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

One of the red cars that was hit was pitted next to me. He was the first red car that got hit in the number #00 car you can see he goes over the tires in the air backwards. His car looked real bad if not totaled.

Like Frank said if you watch the other video Kyle is holding his line and the car that was to the left of him cought his left rear causing him to spin !

[Steve Scheifler]

I don't think so, If you go back to post 71 or 72, Tom's video is the following car, it looks like Kyle is keeping a straight line and the cars are going 3 wide at that point and the get together. i would consider it a racing incident, of 3 cars trying to occupy the same part of the track.

Really? What happened to situational awareness and all that? They were 3-wide in the middle of a long straight and it turned into carnage but nobody was at fault?

[Keith Andrews]

I don't think so, If you go back to post 71 or 72, Tom's video is the following car, it looks like Kyle is keeping a straight line and the cars are going 3 wide at that point and the get together. i would consider it a racing incident, of 3 cars trying to occupy the same part of the track.

 

Sorry Frank, my sarcasm did not translate via the internet.  Kyle is the only guy I know that was in that mess.  I have no idea what happened.  A poor attempt at humor on my part. 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Really? What happened to situational awareness and all that? They were 3-wide in the middle of a long straight and it turned into carnage but nobody was at fault?

 

Steve with all due respect, someone is probably at fault, I hgave even been told by ONE that I am at fault.  Personally I dont care to place blame on anyone even though it certainly was not my fault.  

 

Placing blame doesnt help anyone or further our racing community.  Shit happens I have already built a new car, time goes on!  

 

I am also certain that what happened was not intentional by any involved!  Unlike you with you ATL incedent I am not out to prove my innocence or anothers guilt!  I will leave that to you and others to decide... the only thing I should have done it just abondoned the race after being thrown completely sideways in t1 on the start. 

 

For any SM racer If you are not willing to lose your car totaly DO NOT RACE!!!! it could happen anytime anywhere on t he track, either by your mistake or anothers. Does that suck Yeah it kinda does but its the risk we all take at the end of the day, and no DQ or points on a license of antoher racer will ever bring your dead car back to life.  

[Steve Scheifler]

So nothing to be learned from mistakes. Got it.

[Steve Scheifler]

Oh, and since we all have another car to hop in the next race, no problem. Never mind the substantial risk to life and limb when shit just happens. After all, if you aren't prepared to roll away from it in a wheelchair you shouldn't be out there.

Exactly what would you be saying if someone had been seriously injured or killed? Where is your threshold for it to matter?

[Tom Scheifler]

I'm not a safety-at-any-cost kind of person and I realize that some incidents do fall into the shit-happens category. Maybe this one did, I don't really know.  But I need to respond to a few of these comments.

 

Placing blame doesnt help anyone or further our racing community.  Shit happens I have already built a new car, time goes on!  

 

I hope everyone in racing is working to learn from their mistakes and trying to avoid a repeat is the least a person can do.

Actually avoiding a repeat benefits/furthers our racing community.

 

 

I am also certain that what happened was not intentional by any involved! 

 

Intentional or not, it's still worth learning from a mistake.

I really hope the next generation of racers are not being taught:  shit happens, as long it's not intentional don't worry about how much damage you inflict on the other drivers.

 

 

For any SM racer If you are not willing to lose your car totaly DO NOT RACE!!!! it could happen anytime anywhere on t he track, either by your mistake or anothers. Does that suck Yeah it kinda does but its the risk we all take at the end of the day, and no DQ or points on a license of antoher racer will ever bring your dead car back to life.  

 

I accept the risk of a total write-off.  I think everyone does.  But I'm not willing to accept the risk of allowing drivers to be irresponsible just because they can afford to buy/build as many cars as they want.  So when appropriate, yes, blame should be assessed and repeat offenders should be suspended.  Appropriate penalties for fault won't bring back a dead car (or a dead person) but they can avoid another dead car (or person).

[Ron Alan]

Shit does happen...but always for specific reasons. It is very rarely intentional...but so often avoidable. Drivers reactions to these incidents vary as much as the drivers themselves and feelings of guilt or victim.

Most incidents share fault be it 50/50 or 90/10. All should be evaluated in an effort to improve all drivers. Some drivers are much less reluctant to assume any responsibility...when penalties don't solve the issue usually peer pressure does. Offenders either quit or get a major change in attitude.

Not commenting on these specific videos but basically a combination of kyles and toms posts.

Speaking from personal experience when my son started...he knew if the car was totaled...that would be it for us for awhile! Over 3 years he made 1 big mistake. He avoided several incidents when others made poor decisions. Point is he had to drive smart and conservative if he wanted to keep racing...it is amazing how tight and clean racing can be when all share a little of this same attitude.

[Sean - MiataCage]

These are general comments, not specific to the incident at hand....

 

My concern with all the "racing incident" talk is that it is too easy of a way out for the Stewards to just call it a racing incident and move on.  I believe that it is a very rare occurrence for the racing incident scenario.  I often hear people write off crashes and don't give them due consideration to try to learn from them because of that definition.... It feels like a catch all in too many instances.  It is my belief that in most all circumstances there is something that occurred that started the incident.  Either a mechanical, or dropping wheels, spinning, jumping the curbs, getting on the paint in the wet etc, etc.  Cars don't just start hitting each other in pre-grid.  Someone was responsible.... Not always and most often not intentional, but responsible none the less.  I love the scenario where someone drops two wheels, spins and collects a bunch of cars and then we hear about the whole "there was no where for me to go" and most focus on the avoidance issues when the car that lost control and dropped wheels was at fault and should be penalized in the first place.

 

I believe that poor decisions is the biggest problem and the thing that needs to be evaluated the most. I believe that certain drivers will continue to show patterns in these areas due to their decision making process.  We all likely have one in each region.... The guy/girl who can string together a good qualifying lap every once and a while, but can't ever maintain that position because of poor decision making in the race.  Trying to win on the first lap, trying to stuff the nose in the last corner in front of a straight, being impatient, not understanding how to pass someone and not lose time, general lack of race craft..  

 

I hope that in the near future we move to electronic log books so that we can see these patterns and deal with them sooner rather than later.  I get that mistakes happen and people don't need to be crucified for their mistake, but I believe we have created a catch all scenario with the racing incident thing and it is too easy to use it as a conflict avoidance tool.  Last time I checked no one was making a living from winning these $6.00 plastic trophies and we all need to make it back to work on Monday.

 

Sean

[Caveman-kwebb99]

  I get that mistakes happen and people don't need to be crucified for their mistake, but I believe we have created a catch all scenario with the racing incident thing and it is too easy to use it as a conflict avoidance tool.  Last time I checked no one was making a living from winning these $6.00 plastic trophies and we all need to make it back to work on Monday.

 

Sean

 

Though I am qouting you sean I really have no problem with anything you said in your post. 

 

Well I think most here know I am not afraid of conflict, I was spun and my car was totaled!  If I thought conflict could cure this accident I am certainly not afraid.  

 

This is my last post on this subect, for all the airchair quarterbacks go ahead and find whoever it is you want to blame, and get them blamed so we can all learn and move on...

 

If i could change one thing it would be abandon the race after getting spun from p4-p34 in t1 of lap1...  Racing with guys in p34 cost me a car, is that because they are p34 drivers??? I cannot answer that question...  I think this is a fluk incedent myself.  The other two that were involved in my being put around I dont beleive they even frequent here so maybe after the decision has been made of who is to blame and for what we need to track some guys down and let them know what the jury decided!

 

and as I said many posts ago I feel bad for anyone who wasnt directly involved but ended up hitting me and destroying their cars in the process. I know many dont have the luxery of having a roller sitting and a mechanic on staff to put it all together, luckily I do, and did.  It certainly was not my choice to have to do a new car in a week, but I for one will not be pointing fingers or placing blame, there are plenty here that want to do that, so I will leave that for them.

 

Happy Haloween everyone

[FTodaro]

I am the one that used the racing incident term, but i know all the drivers involved and know them all to be good  drivers, So my comments are in part based upon viewing film and in part personal knowledge of the drivers involved.

 

But this is the real point i want to make.

 

I have never been comfortable with viewing video on the forum and then everyone casting opinions about who did what when and why.

 

My view is, that hind sight is 20/20 if I could revisit every decision i make on track in the moment with video and different views of what i can see and what i cannot see, i am sure i would do things much better and different. But that is not reality. So yes shit does happen because none of us are the perfect example of the race driver.

 

Moving on the to point about using issues, mistakes what have you, as a learning tool. I totally agree with that, but i disagree that this is the place to do it.

 

I have had issues with some drivers on track this year as some have had issues with me, We took our video sat down one on one and looked at it and came to a better understanding. So yes on track incidents should be examined and drivers need to assess their decisions they make on track, but this is not the place to do it and it is not productive in accomplishing that goal, IMO.

[Danny Steyn]

  Last time I checked no one was making a living from winning these $6.00 plastic trophies and we all need to make it back to work on Monday.

 

Sean

 

Sean - you obviously aren't winning enough of these $6.00 plastic trophies. Its all about volume!

[38bfast]

A trend we have seen over the years is high risk on lap one and to be more specific 3-4 wide on lap one. The meat in the middle is trapped and has no where to go. The bread can't see through the meat. The bread likes to lean / pinch the meat. The next thing is the sandwich goes all to hell.

So if you make it a 3 wide situation you are knowingly entering a high risk situation and should take appropriate action to avoid contact or be prepared to back out if the situation gets ugly.

History has proven that SM is terrible at making sandwiches.

[Michael Novak]

A trend we have seen over the years is high risk on lap one and to be more specific 3-4 wide on lap one. The meat in the middle is trapped and has no where to go. The bread can't see through the meat. The bread likes to lean / pinch the meat. The next thing is the sandwich goes all to hell.

So if you make it a 3 wide situation you are knowingly entering a high risk situation and should take appropriate action to avoid contact or be prepared to back out if the situation gets ugly.

History has proven that SM is terrible at making sandwiches.

This summons it up perfectly....  SM's being so close close in power makes it worse then other classes I believe.