310 replies to this topic

[Jim Creighton]

In response to SEDiv driver requests, we are pleased to announce the formation of a new SARRC, ECR & Carolina Cup class, SMSE. The class will be for 1.6 cars and will use all GCR rules applicable to these cars. The 4 event weekends already scheduled for the start of the 2016 season, the ARRC, the Turkey Trot, the Goblins Go at VIR and the Palm Beach Classic will award points for any SMSE car entering. The VIR race supps are already published and the cars entering and competing in SSM will upon request receive points in SMSE.

 

Our purpose for the new class is to provide an equal rules set for these cars to compete and not suffer any disadvantage to newer models at certain SEDiv tracks. Now, all 1.6's can compete against other 1.6's. Yes, I understand that 1.6's may be equal to later models at certain tracks but we want them to be equal at all tracks.

 

This announcement was made at the SIC and seems to be well received. We will leave it up to the individual Regions to decide which group to include the cars, SM, IT, etc. A meeting will be held at our annual division meeting in Feb at the Sea Palms Resort in St Simons Island, Ga to decide any fine tuning such as a spec tire, etc. Details concerning the meeting will be announced and is open to all who might wish to attend. We will also hold an open meeting at the ARRC to discuss the new class.

 

I hope you will help us spread the word and encourage drivers to bring their 1.6's to the track. I can be contacted directly at jcreig53@mindspring.com. And I will be looking forward to awarding the first SMSE class SARRC Champion red jacket to one of you.

[Todd Lamb]

Jim as you know I'm here with you this weekend at the SIC/Roebling. I have heard ZERO requests for this. Fowler is testing proposed 1.6 changes on his car in SM. I would like to think if you wanted to push something like this you'd speak to me first. I've spent 3 seasons around SSM in MARRS and we are in the process of working on 1.6 rules on the SMAC. How about a little dialogue before you begin fracturing SM in our region?

[Jim Creighton]

Spoke with Tom Fowler and Jeff LaBounty and also went by your rig several times but you were not there.

 

This is an effort to get cars that I see at other events back to the track in SCCA. We are not fracturing SM in SEDiv. We often have 50 to 60 cars fields and there's no chance for the most part for the 1.6 guys. No 1.6 will be forced to run SMSE. As a matter of fact, if the grouping was right, they could double dip.

 

A recent comment on this forum by the chair of the CRB that 1.6 was getting some "bones" tossed to them for 2016 did not sit well with some guys.

 

We (SEDIV)reacted a number of years ago to some of the RX 7 guys who no longer had a chance in ITA and created IT7. That has netted us many entries we would have lost.

 

I truly believe that you or anyone else would have a hard time arguing that the 1.6's who chose to run in SMSE will fracture the Division. You only have to visit our neighbors to the north and see their healthy turnouts of these cars while we have almost none.They've done a much better job with the 1.6 customers than we have.

 

On the Majors level, I applaud what you are doing.  We needed to move quicker than what I've seen in the past two years. But, if I and the others who voted for this are wrong, no harm will come and the 1.6 drivers will come back out and run SM.  If we were right, still no harm since we will have more entries for the Regional races and that's a big plus to those Regions who do not get Majors.

 

Good luck to you and all other at the SIC race tomorrow. One of you will win the SARRC Championship.

 

 

[High Chair]

Jim,

I for one think you are on the correct track here. Hopefully the CFR will get the word out and the 1.6 drivers will make it a success at the Turkey Trot. Like you said, nobody is being forced to run SMSE but giving the 1.6 drivers the option to race against each other should be positive for everyone. If they can double dip great but if not they will still be battling with the newer cars while at the same time racing for a win against cars of equal performance. I see no downside to SMSE.

JT

[Jim Drago]

Just what we need another class I think we tried this at the ARRC a few years ago and is was a resounding failure. This is what amounts to the tallest midget contest in our everyone gets a trophy society.

SSM seems to work well, but it it's own rule, more restrictive than SM. A class with the same rules as the most successful class in club history just so less talented drivers and/or under prepared cars can win seems contrary to the reason we all race in the fist place. I know the intent is coming from a good place, but not what we need. As Todd said, I dont see anyone asking for this. They are asking for better parity within Sm, it seems the SMAC is addressing that.
Jim

[Ron Alan]

Just what we need another class I think we tried this at the ARRC a few years ago and is was a resounding failure. This is what amounts to the tallest midget contest in our everyone gets a trophy society.

SSM seems to work well, but it it's own rule, more restrictive than SM. A class with the same rules as the most successful class in club history just so less talented drivers and/or under prepared cars can win seems contrary to the reason we all race in the fist place. I know the intent is coming from a good place, but not what we need. As Todd said, I dont see anyone asking for this. They are asking for better parity within Sm, it seems the SMAC is addressing that.
Jim

Another class that might get 20+ entries a weekend? It would be one of the biggest classes! 

 

SSM on the west coast is half our field and keeping a lot of cars racing! Unlike SSM in the NE these are all SM 1.6 cars sealed to a max HP(all else the same). I hear zero complaints from either group about the other and drivers routinely switch from one class to the other every year. 

 

If it was a trophy thing there are lots of other classes(with less than 5 entries)to achieve this in. And why would you of all people(and Todd?) want to discourage people from coming out by insulting them...less talented and under prepped(code word cheap!)?? Everyone has a limit in both these catagories...standing on top of the hill pointing down achieves nothing. If a guy who would have finished 50th in SM comes out because now he is going to finish 25th in SSM...this is good for the club! What is good for the club is good for SM I would think?

 

Listen...I'm with you guys and your everyone gets a trophy sentiment...but that is with our youth. As adults, everyone has different goals...and realize certain others are just not achievable. This is why we go out and play D league softball on the weekend and come home to a beer and the major league playoffs on the TV!

 

Midget jokes aside...what is the downside to this? And remember...this is coming form the guy who has advocated a 1.6 class sooner that later...even though it would suck for my generation car! Let the 1.8's be free!!

[Bench Racer]

I don't see a need for another class and I own a 1.6.

 

Thank you Ron for your calling out above.

 

Jim Drago, why don't you hand out stickers to all who own/drive under prepped cars.

[Todd Lamb]

How does this NOT dilute the class? The logic here is really flawed.

The MARRS SSM class works because it is a regional rule set with sealed (dyno spec, but that's another story) motors. This is not that class or ruleset.

If the purpose of this is to bring 1.6's out of mothballs, then why would anyone figure they would double dip? Who exactly are these drivers that requested this because I damn well better see them on the entry list next race. Jim C let's have some actual names of future participants.

If the purpose is to convert current 1.6 drivers to this new class, then it sure sounds to me like fracturing the class.

As Drago said, this was tried at the ARRC already and failed miserably.

This reeks of a cash grab by the region with no regard for the well being of the class.

[Bruce Wilson]

Ugh!  

 

I'm feeling confident the SMAC will fix most of this problem.  There will always be disparity at different tracks, that's what makes it more interesting  1.6 cars are not that far off, and just need a little nudge.  SEDiv guys, Let the SMAC do their job.  Bailing to a fragmented class is not the answer!

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

I'm sorry but I don't race in that div.but I have to make a comment and I'm not trying to turn it into a parity thing but it's going to be.

1) A lot of 1.6 guys are tired of waiting for help

2) A turn signal removed and a wrap for the intake is not going to make it more competitive

3) If the smac is thinking about compression I feel a lot of 1.6 guys aren't going to spend the money to have this done ( I would ). This would easily cost them an easy 2-3k if they can't do it them selfs.

Those are just 3 examples off the top of my head. So if the smac can't come up with a good fix for the 1.6 I say go for it and add the class and see what happens.

Now if they decide to let the 1.6 guys have an easy bolt on item that they can instal them selfs like a header with the turn signal removed and the intake wrap now we're talking. Yes it would be to much but just add 25 or 50lbs back to the car. Not hard to do and cheap and the problem solved.

Ps I do appreciate and just want to thank everyone that has served on the smac for all the time and effort they put into this class. This class is healthy because of all that hard work. They just have to fine tune one thing the 1.6 !

Sorry if I hijacked this post. You can move it if you want to !

[Jim Drago]

Jim Drago, why don't you hand out stickers to all who own/drive under prepped cars.

Anyone that routinely runs 2.5 seconds plus a lap off the pace( no parity adjustments even thought of is fixing this BTW) due to lack of talent and/or lack of fulling preparing should get these stickers I suppose, I dont need to pick them. I'll have one specially made for you if you like Can I run in this class with a 99 with the original 125k engine,trans,diff,axles and brake calipers? It will be just as far off the pace? I want to race for wins in a 7500 car as well.

[Ron Alan]

I don't see a need for another class and I own a 1.6.

 

Thank you Ron for your calling out above.

 

Jim Drago, why don't you hand out stickers to all who own/drive under prepped cars.

Are you reffering to my comment on(calling out) a 1.6 class? No issue how it is now...but this would sure end the "parity" debate

 

SRF now has a Gen3. Are all the those who stayed in Gen2 unhappy? Those who moved to Gen3 unhappy? Did this dilute SRF?

 

 

How does this NOT dilute the class? The logic here is really flawed.

The MARRS SSM class works because it is a regional rule set with sealed (dyno spec, but that's another story) motors. This is not that class or ruleset.

If the purpose of this is to bring 1.6's out of mothballs, then why would anyone figure they would double dip? Who exactly are these drivers that requested this because I damn well better see them on the entry list next race. Jim C let's have some actual names of future participants.

If the purpose is to convert current 1.6 drivers to this new class, then it sure sounds to me like fracturing the class.

As Drago said, this was tried at the ARRC already and failed miserably.

This reeks of a cash grab by the region with no regard for the well being of the class.

 

 

It dilutes SM into 2 classes for points...not total SM(miata's) count correct? I doubt very much this will change who comes to Majors events? Is this a Majors vs Regionals issue with you Todd? Or said another way, National vs Regional? 

 

Cash grab? Maybe that extra cash can go to Majors Tech and paying to put all the front runners back together? Maybe that would make it ok?

 

Kidding aside...the class already is fractured. Several regions have addressed this and others may follow. It will not change those who wish to prep and run at the front of SM...my 2 cents worth less with inflation

[Bench Racer]

Anyone that routinely runs 2.5 seconds plus a lap off the pace( no parity adjustments even thought of is fixing this BTW) due to lack of talent and/or lack of fulling preparing should get these stickers I suppose, I dont need to pick them.

When you make a wide open statement like this ^ maybe you need to look at your 2015 Runoff results. Minus 30.492 seconds for an average of minus 2.1 seconds per lap. As Mac Davis says in his Oh Lord it's Hard to be Humble song, something about not being perfect in every way.

 

[Jim Drago]

When you make a wide open statement like this ^ maybe you need to look at your 2015 Runoff results. Minus 30.492 seconds for an average of minus 2.1 seconds per lap. As Mac Davis says in his Oh Lord it's Hard to be Humble song, something about not being perfect in every way.

When you make a wide open statement like this ^ maybe you need to look at what I wrote. The word routinely would imply more than a one race deal.

My statement was geared more toward qualifying times. This is not an insult and a slam, just fact. If you are running 2.5 seconds off the pole time routinely there is absolutely a problem with driver,prep level,set up, funding or a combination of all .

[LarryKing]

 

A lot of 1.6 guys are tired of waiting for help

 

I'm sure it will be only another three or four years until the SMAC works something out.

[Sean - MiataCage]

I'm sorry but I don't race in that div.but I have to make a comment and I'm not trying to turn it into a parity thing but it's going to be.

1) A lot of 1.6 guys are tired of waiting for help

2) A turn signal removed and a wrap for the intake is not going to make it more competitive

3) If the smac is thinking about compression I feel a lot of 1.6 guys aren't going to spend the money to have this done ( I would ). This would easily cost them an easy 2-3k if they can't do it them selfs.

Those are just 3 examples off the top of my head. So if the smac can't come up with a good fix for the 1.6 I say go for it and add the class and see what happens.

Now if they decide to let the 1.6 guys have an easy bolt on item that they can instal them selfs like a header with the turn signal removed and the intake wrap now we're talking. Yes it would be to much but just add 25 or 50lbs back to the car. Not hard to do and cheap and the problem solved.

Ps I do appreciate and just want to thank everyone that has served on the smac for all the time and effort they put into this class. This class is healthy because of all that hard work. They just have to fine tune one thing the 1.6 !

Sorry if I hijacked this post. You can move it if you want to !

Hi Butch....

 

1.) We both the SMAC and community are working on it.  We have been tranparent about where we are in the process and are moving forward with changes.  Please give us the chance to do our job and make this happen.

 

2.) What data do you have to support this position?  What testing have you done?  The data I have on multiple days at multiple tracks shows me 2mph gain in EVERY straight away, not just the long ones.  That tells me that the car is coming off of the corner better and will be more competitive.  The data I and others have has also shown us a roughly 40 degree drop in intake temperatures, so even conservatively that would be a couple HP.  I also just got data on the header clean up from a back to back engine dyno test and we saw gains in both HP and Tq there as well.

 

3.) Most of the 1.6L community will not support a 2k to 3k hit to make the car more competitive.  I think they should..... I think compression might be the right answer, but we don't and won't know without testing it.  No matte what solution we come up with some will love it and some will hate it.  We (SMAC) have to try to decipher the attitude of the class from about 20 letters......  20 out of thousands of drivers.... 20....  We are hosed no matter what we do.... It's a no win situation.

 

Please tell us what your fix for the 1.6L is and what testing or theories you have to back it up, and then submit the letter.  I have 1.6's and NB's and the 1.6's are just not that far off.  I am confindent in the fact that this first round of changes will be enough to get us in a position that a well prepped and well driven can will be able to compete with the NB's.  You will likely soon hear about the 1.6's at Mid-O this weekend beating well driven and prepped NB's.

 

As far as I am concerned the intent is not and never will be to make a mid pack,  mid prep 1.6L be capable of beating an NB.  Just as it is not the intent to make any adjustments off of mid pack, mid prep NB's.

 

The problem with a bolt on option, is who makes it, who distributes it, who controls the price on it?   You do NOT want a single source provider for an item in this class unless Mazda manages it and has contracts in place to keep the price in one place and guarantee availablitly.  We see major problems in BMW land with single source provided parts and I would be very careful what you wish for on that front.  i have seen the other side and it is not very nice.

 

Sean

[Sean - MiataCage]

I'm sure it will be only another three or four years until the SMAC works something out.

 

Feel free to be a part of the solution and not part of the problem at any point.   Bitchin on an internet forum is pretty easy to do.....

 

Sean

[Jim Creighton]

SEDiv 1.6 drivers.--- Thanks for your emails supporting SMSE. The new class is in the entry for the ARRC, the Turkey Trot and the Palm Beach classic. And as I said, it is now a SARRC class, an ECR class and a Carolina Cup class.

 

Again, as I have clearly stated, our agenda in SEDiv is to get the 1.6's back to the track racing at our (SCCA ) races in 2016.

 

See all of you at the ARRC.

 

 

[cam]

Whilst the efforts of the SMAC are appreciated and I'm sure there is more going on behind the scenes, this issue has been going on for a multitude of years and do not see the actions of the SEDiv as fragmenting the class, rather it should get more 1.6's out to the track.  I keep reading that the 1.6 just needs to spend more money to be competitive, that is similar to when Marie Antoinette said to the starving masses "Let them eat cake" https://www.youtube....h?v=G2EARJGkdTM

 

As Drago and other have pointed out multiple times, the 1.6 drivers are not longer coming out and this is a way for them to have a place to play.  If the West coast has a healthy 1.6 SM showing then it makes sense to not need this type of class but from I've observed, it should bring out more cars and will not interfere for current SM car count.

[LarryKing]

 

Feel free to be a part of the solution and not part of the problem at any point. Bitchin on an internet forum is pretty easy to do.....

 

 

OK, everyboby with a 1.6 can now run a Racing Beat header. DONE!!!

 

(easy peazy)