310 replies to this topic

[Mike Collins]

Jim, 

 

I applaud your effort with SMSE and I think you understand the problem. Where I differ in opinion is that SMSE wont work, it doesn't address the solution. Its just another "MeToo" class that splits the current crop of entrants and really does nothing to get 1.6 cars back on track. I can't understand why areas of the country that want to do something like this don't use the VERY successful WDCR-SCCA SSM program as a template. It works! It has proven it works for OVER 10 YEARS! We get more SSM entries than SM entries at regional races, on average 40 SSM to 25 SM, those are unique entries, not double dippers. The cost to take a SM 1.6 to SSM trim is negligible and it evens the playing field, SMSE does not accomplish that and until groups around the country understand the 1.6 solution, agreeing to the problem doesn't help. Create 1.6 ONLY class with tight rules and an even playing field and the cars will come out in droves, the SM rules don't do that.

[Todd Lamb]

Amen.

[Steve Scheifler]

Mike, please remind us of the key differences between SM and SSM.

[Sean - MiataCage]

OK, everyboby with a 1.6 can now run a Racing Beat header. DONE!!!

 

(easy peazy)

 

Submit your letter with some data to back it up and we will be more than happy to consider it and make a suggestion to the CRB.

[Mike Collins]

Mike, please remind us of the key differences between SM and SSM.

Very briefly:

 

No shock hats or Fatcats...never needed them on 1.6

 

Spec Exhaust

 

Stock Air Intake

 

Spec plugs and wires

 

FSM spec minimum head and block heights

 

WDCR has a max HP and I agree with that but you could run SSM without that, the Airbox and exhaust are pretty limiting....

[Mike Collins]

SSM runs on TOYO RA1

[Johnny D]

I think our SSM program out west works well because we're not alienated any of the driver.
We all run together.
So it may not seem, look, feel like a fractured class to the drivers or viewers.

If you kick them to another run group, I would think they are kind of getting out casted and then you have a fractured class.

What is the difference between a multi class run group and a over/under prep multi level driver and $$?
A few letters on the side of the car,
J~

[Ron Alan]

So Jim, it would seem Mike and Todd are not against another class, but just against a class in name only that is no different than the existing class. So simple do a little something to make it unique and all will be happy!

 

Out West it is a simple dyno tune to a max HP(113.5ish) and then the motor is sealed(maybe a few other small rules i dont remember). It was proven not to be a perfect system but since that one instance people have played by the rules. It keeps the cars out there at a reasonable cost. Like Johnny said, all qualify and run together...one big happy family! 

[LarryKing]

Where does one source a spec exhaust if switching to WDCR SSM?

[Mike Collins]

Where does one source a spec exhaust if switching to WDCR SSM?

 

The current exhaust that we use is the Bosal that was at one point in the very early days the SM spec exhaust.  It is no longer in production but easily available.. In the next 60-90 days we are adding an exhaust that performs the same and generally looks the same, its very important to us to find no performance advantage. Many of us horde the exhaust. I have several old time SM prep shops that have garages full of these from the "old days"... I call and ask regularly for them to bring them to a race we will both be at.. I am always picking them up.

[Steve Scheifler]

So Jim, it would seem Mike and Todd are not against another class, but just against a class in name only that is no different than the existing class. So simple do a little something to make it unique and all will be happy!

...

I fail to understand why a few changes in the rules makes any difference, other than a built-in excuse for being slower???

[Todd Lamb]

Because a $8000 1.6 can win in SSM. But it takes a $25k 1.6 to win in SM.

[Steve Scheifler]

Very briefly:

No shock hats or Fatcats...never needed them on 1.6

...

Spec plugs and wires

FSM spec minimum head and block heights

...

These I don't understand. Wires & Plugs? Is there data to support a need for that or is it just a perception thing?

I really do not understand the reluctance to adopt the late model shock hats and something like the fat cats. Or do the run that intermediate "fix" with NB hats plus aluminum spacers?

[Todd Lamb]

Plugs make a difference. I don't believe that wires do but if a low dollar wire set can be spec'd so be it. Budget racing.

Why allow shock hats when you can run without and save $?

IMO the primary goal of SSM is low cost.

[Mike Collins]

SSM offers low cost, highly competitive regional racing.  By specing parts and having an HP limit it keeps cost and experimentation down, if you want to do that race SM. Prep and Driver ability still win races. My car has won with 2 drivers this year and been on the podium twice with another 2 different drivers.  I bought the car that was built in 2004 for $7500.  I added a diff and thats it.  Consumables only.  It get scales and aligned for every event and rolls on and off the scales between sessions....

[Steve Scheifler]

Because a $8000 1.6 can win in SSM. But it takes a $25k 1.6 to win in SM.

And if all regions did the same, and you and a bunch of other front pack SM drivers decided to join the fun, and Mazda and others rewarded it similarly, would that still be true? IMO, absolutely not. So a separate class is either for a car that inherently can't compete, or it is for people who either don't take it as seriously or are unable/unwilling to do what's necessary to be competitive in SM. A slightly different rule set seems like a purely psychological bandaid.

I haven't formed an opinion on the main topic, I see valid points from all sides even if not artfully stated, so I'm trying to understand both the motivation and the objections.

[Steve Scheifler]

Plugs make a difference. I don't believe that wires do but if a low dollar wire set can be spec'd so be it. Budget racing.

Why allow shock hats when you can run without and save $?

IMO the primary goal of SSM is low cost.

We debated shock hats etc. years ago and the same points still apply. Getting enough camber to optimize tire life (forget lap times) will save the cost of NB shock hats every weekend if not every session, or you aren't driving fast enough. If you can get enough camber without them you are either on the incredibly hard bumpstops in which case many normal setup and tuning norms don't apply (how can that be good for a beginner???), or you have done something else to get camber and once again the poor jerk stupid enough to follow the rules gets screwed. That isn't speculation, that's fact from years of personal experience.

[Todd Lamb]

MARRS SSM has a max camber rule so shock hats aren't a factor.

Also, I've run and won in MARRS SSM (Thanks to Meathead!) and it did not require a high dollar car to compete against some very good competition. The series has been going strong for 10? years and a cheap (entry level SM price) car can win. This is due to the rule set. Not just a separate SM class for 1.6's, but a regional level set of rules for a different class of cars.

[davearm]

Here is my question. I am a mid pack, low budget 1.6 SM driver. I have an older Rossini rebuilt motor, Fat Cats, Hoosiers and RR's (run both NASA & SCCA). I have no problem going back to RA1's, going to need new tires for 2016 anyway.  The only issue is of retro fitting the stock shock hats and what do I do about my motor? Do we just de-tune to 113 and seal it, or do I need to look for a stock 1.6 head to refresh, or an entire junkyard motor? 

[Neil O]

And if all regions did the same, and you and a bunch of other front pack SM drivers decided to join the fun, and Mazda and others rewarded it similarly, would that still be true? IMO, absolutely not. So a separate class is either for a car that inherently can't compete, or it is for people who either don't take it as seriously or are unable/unwilling to do what's necessary to be competitive in SM. A slightly different rule set seems like a purely psychological bandaid.

I haven't formed an opinion on the main topic, I see valid points from all sides even if not artfully stated, so I'm trying to understand both the motivation and the objections.

 

In SSM the Hp Limit coupled with compliance testing (dyno) keep the cost down and are a huge part of it's success.  Alan (class leader) does a great job making sure the dyno process is a good as it can be.  Right now there is no reason to pay big $$ for a motor.  A decent bottom end w a good valve job will make the number.  

 

Great regional program but, in my opinion almost impossible to create a level playing field nationally.