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#21
dstevens

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I did some quick math when I priced the Drop Plate. If I sell 20 pieces it covers the time and materials to design and build the prototypes. On #21 I start making real profit. My guess is about 30 per year. So after a year and thousands of dollars invested, I have less than $1000 in my pocket.

 

I'd be better off flipping burgers at McyDees for $15 an hour. But that is a totally different arguement.

 

Doing the first one would be a 5 hour addition to a cage build. Should be faster the second time around. Doing a retrofit to an existing racecar would be even more fab time.

 

 

A year and thousands of dollars to make a box for the floor of a Miata?   :wacko:

 

Three years ago we started a small batch manufacturing business making DIY 3D printer chassis/frame kits and full machines  (one of the reasons I haven't been around here).  We've sold about 5000 kits.  Not big but enough to keep two people employed full time and make some money.  At this point I have logged hundreds of hours 2D cutting.  Waterjet, laser, plasma table and CNC routing.  I run about 600 parts a week in house right now, half of them CO2 laser cut.   

 

I don't mean to be a ball buster particularly just coming back but if that part can't be made even in 20 batch at $250 retail that's a problem with the process, not the value of the part.  There is narrow market value in the part but to claim near poverty on a bent metal box is stretching it a bit.  I didn't want to show the math because everyone's cost structure is different and I didn't want people to get the feeling they were being fleeced.  A $250 street price is right about what the pain threshold is going to be for most.  My numbers are from the same models we use in like fabrication methods.

 

My costs...

 

$17.71/part based on 40" x 30" nesting footprint.  That's retail on the steel, delivered.  Enough material for a 20 run batch drops it to around $14.

$12 cost of cutting, padded the hell out of it, Torchmate 2/Cutmaster A80 200 ipm @30 amps, consumables, contribution toward the machine lease, real estate in the shop, power and labor (labor @ 18/hr billed at $25 to cover costs)

$12.50 bending based on $25/hr (which is padded quite a bit because if it took someone 30 mins to hand bend that they'd need a new gig...)

 

That's a COGS of about $43 (in a one time 20 run it would be under $40). Using the old time method of 5 x COGS to account for margin (which these days most small batch is lucky to do 3 1/2 x COGS) we're at about $215.  If one is hoping to pay for a table and a press brake just to do these it's a losing proposition.  If one is having the whole thing made they're retailing it and shouldn't expect as big a margin in most cases.  A year and $5k in a 20 run batch before break even something is wrong unless there is a tool or facility cost that the project is trying to recoup.



#22
Johnny D

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I think he's talking R&D costs.
He said his time, protypes, etc.
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#23
David L

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Jim I see you are using a 45 degree angle to try and deflect some debris. A while back a guy lost the bottom of his engine due to a rock just off course. will this be enough in a situation like this especially with the belts being secured to it?  Dave are you adding any type of skid plate?


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#24
Jim Drago

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The law of unintended consequences! No, I am not added a skid plate but would like to, however it is not legal.. One of the reasons this did not pass the first time. The floor insert pocket is stronger than the existing floor, but no doubt it is low and can catch which is why we added the 45... Is it enough? In right situation probably not.. But 100x better than a 90 IMO. I posted underside pictures above and would like to add a skid plate, but not legal at this time

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#25
David L

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Yeah saw the pictures and it got me thinking, for once I can get behind some cheating. :)  


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#26
38bfast

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The rule states a Min thickness. Not a max. 


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#27
Andy Mitchell

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So this could conceivably be a big ballast plate, welded on really low? :)

 

*Edit* I guess it's not going to be all that much lower than the regular floor, even if someone wanted to push the rules. And would tend to screw up the balance of the car over 'regular' ballast. Still, I just couldn't resist commenting!


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#28
David L

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So this could conceivably be a big ballast plate, welded on really low? :)

 

*Edit* I guess it's not going to be all that much lower than the regular floor, even if someone wanted to push the rules. And would tend to screw up the balance of the car over 'regular' ballast. Still, I just couldn't resist commenting!

Great post as I was thinking the same thing.

 

Jim says " Only a complete fool would put this modification in their car unless absolutely necessary" but than posts a couple of pictures of "his" new car with this same mod installed on the exact opposite side of his ballast plates. Makes me wonder, but he might have grown taller,got older, fatter, skinnier etc... and that may necessitate this new addition.  


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#29
Caveman-kwebb99

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Jim's head rubs the top always has look at his helmet!!!!!!


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#30
David L

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Really?  I was thrashed for using a cheap helmet and you guys were letting him race a car that his head was touching. Some friends


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#31
Jim Drago

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Great post as I was thinking the same thing.
 
Jim says " Only a complete fool would put this modification in their car unless absolutely necessary" but than posts a couple of pictures of "his" new car with this same mod installed on the exact opposite side of his ballast plates. Makes me wonder, but he might have grown taller,got older, fatter, skinnier etc... and that may necessitate this new addition.

My hard top has a wear hole from my helmet and my helmet has a wear spot from the top. I stand by the fool comment 100% even if it means I sell fewer of these. Lower left CG sounds great until you have to turn right, especially slow rights. I have battled this my entire racing lifetime. You ARE FAR BETTER to weigh 160 lbs and be under 6'0. You enjoy perfect weight distribution and you can set your car up where each wheel is literally within 5 lbs of each other.. My left side wheels are always 50-70 lbs more than rights. In a track like Mid Ohio.. where the car doesn't turn well in the rights for anyone as it is.. I invite all to shift their ballast to the under the left seat like I do :)
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#32
David L

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You should really lobby for a skid plate. I thought in the SCCA safety came first, sh#$ makes no sense.


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#33
Weekend Warrior

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Jim is going to blame the bald spot he has on his helmet rubbing the top now...
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#34
dstevens

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I think he's talking R&D costs.
He said his time, protypes, etc.
J~

 

While that very well may be his cost, in terms of manufacturing $4k is and a year is an inordinate amount of R&D for what is basically a flat stamped box (first 20 run would be about a grand if one were equipped).    That's a process issue, not a manufacturing issue.  For someone in the manufacturing biz if that's the cost sturcture it's likely the point where you say enough and don't build the part.  I see the value add for the builder during the build offering the option, not so much as a kit part.

 

My granddaughter will be here in a couple of days to clean up some welds in the car.   :banana: She was checking out the car on her last trip and wants to come and at least re weld the footings.  I think they are fine but she told her grandmother the welds weren't good so I guess I'm out voted.    :bigsquaregrin:  While it's mostly an excerise for us to spend some time together, she's an ME major and a good welder, better than me.  Even though the car isn't going to make it on track (with me driving anyway...) I'll put one in.  It will be a good project for us.  It may cost a hundred and 10 hours but the time will be priceless.



#35
dstevens

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So this could conceivably be a big ballast plate, welded on really low? :)

 

*Edit* I guess it's not going to be all that much lower than the regular floor, even if someone wanted to push the rules. And would tend to screw up the balance of the car over 'regular' ballast. Still, I just couldn't resist commenting!

 You absolutely could.  From the complaints I've seen when weights were changed slightly from builds in progress it would indicate to me that people have been building weight balanced cars.  There is no cross weight rule as in circle track and no rule that stipulates all added tubing and plates must be the same.  With some calculation you could determine the best possible cross weight and and design and fab the cage to accomdate that.

 

I don't have enough experience or data to say conclusively if it would be a competitive mod in an SM but the reason it's outlawed in circle track is because for them it works.



#36
tburas56

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My hard top has a wear hole from my helmet and my helmet has a wear spot from the top. I stand by the fool comment 100% even if it means I sell fewer of these. Lower left CG sounds great until you have to turn right, especially slow rights. I have battled this my entire racing lifetime. You ARE FAR BETTER to weigh 160 lbs and be under 6'0. You enjoy perfect weight distribution and you can set your car up where each wheel is literally within 5 lbs of each other.. My left side wheels are always 50-70 lbs more than rights. In a track like Mid Ohio.. where the car doesn't turn well in the rights for anyone as it is.. I invite all to shift their ballast to the under the left seat like I do :)

Why are you so good at Road America...Almost all rights..Hehehehehe... :buried:


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#37
Jim Drago

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Why are you so good at Road America...Almost all rights..Hehehehehe... :buried:

In the words of LPS.. I'm a bamf! :)

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#38
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:help:  Johnny, dictionary???


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#39
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bad attitude moderatly feminine...


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#40
Clayton L

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Oh wow, this is the first I've seen of this new rule. Still building my car but I'm 6'6" 265lbs and I've been having a really hard time placing my seat in a way that I fit comfortably without having my head with a helmet rest on the roof (ultrashield seat, no padding). I've always worried about touching the floor but me being a tall heavy guy obviously is no advantage even with a slightly lowered seat pan. I still weigh more than most and am likely to be overweight with no ballast.






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