83 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

I'd like to know where on the straights the 1.6 made up time against a truly top power NB. In 5th near terminal velocity, maybe, otherwise I doubt it very much. Not saying that it should be even equal on the straights given other advantages, but we HAVE run nose to tail with top NB power and they still had the edge through 4th gear.

What you are saying may be correct. For point of reference...  I feel with 100% certainty that the black 99 I raced at Gateway is as good or BETTER than all other compliant 99/00 cars in the country. Not sure how you guys compared at other tracks with other 99 cars.  But that comparison should give you real data on where your cars are in relationship to the best NB cars, for whatever that is worth? Then you have to ask how much of the difference is rules/weight? How much of it is difference in cars? 50/50, 90/10, 10/90..  Should a 1.6 that is 125 lbs lighter be faster on the straights as well when it will have a braking and cornering advantage?   Very hard to make all these comparisons and get to what even 30% of us will call "parity".  The cars are very close, but they were very close before as well. We are splitting hairs four ways at this point.

 

As I have said privately to you and a few others... I believe a 1.6 car built to the limit of the rules driven by a top 10 type driver is at a slight advantage to the other cars built and driven to the same levels. Am I right? I have no idea, but that is my opinion.  With that being said.. leave it alone for a year and let it play it out.   Slight advantage to any one car is fine.. A big enough advantage to where top drivers are going back to build 1.6 cars, the SMAC is doing a disservice to the class.  Let it play out a year and see what happens.  One last thing, lots of people equate wins with parity..  IMO, that is not accurate at all.  If cars are really in a situation of "parity" the best drivers should win.. Right now without tring to offend anyone, I think it is very fair to say the "best" drivers in the class are not in NA cars. 

[Steve Scheifler]

We are in agreement for the most part, with a bit less certainly for me on some points. I hope I made it clear that a slight power disadvantage for the 1.6 is appropriate given its slight edge in other areas. However, the math to quantify the advantages of ~5% less weight are much more complex than most might imagine, and as far as I know have not been done.

And then there is the obvious fact that in a momentum car it takes far less talent to benefit from more power, lap after lap after lap, than to consistently reap the cornering benefits of sightly less weight.

[Brandon]

And I'd go as far to say they're not in NAs for reasons OTHER than parity; with available capital proportional to time to build a NEW car with a newer donor being the big differentiator.

 

If you had $25k & 3 months to build a car would you waste the first month trying to find the best NA chassis for the price and then scrambling on the build?  Or would you spend a few thousand more on a newer donor, shorten that search time, and start racing competitively by the end of week 12?

 

My take: it was a confluence of things which leaves us where we're at today.  It's not what was intended but that's where we find ourselves.

[Jim Drago]

 

 

My take: it was a confluence of things which leaves us where we're at today.  It's not what was intended but that's where we find ourselves.

You say that like it is a negative.. I don't see it that way at all. 

[Jim Drago]

We are in agreement for the most part, with a bit less certainly for me on some points. I hope I made it clear that a slight power disadvantage for the 1.6 is appropriate given its slight edge in other areas. However, the math to quantify the advantages of ~5% less weight are much more complex than most might imagine, and as far as I know have not been done.

And then there is the obvious fact that in a momentum car it takes far less talent to benefit from more power, lap after lap after lap, than to consistently reap the cornering benefits of sightly less weight.

I'm not sure that power disadvantage exists.. I feel fairly confident that if we built a 1.6 to the same levels as our NB cars, the NA would also be fastest in a straight line. Hard to know any of this for certain, not so much that I want to spend my own time and money ( again) to find out. I'm now a just racing what is best for me and my guys. Whatever the rules may be, we will race them and do our best to win. Nothing that comes (IMO) will be so far left or right that I can't win in whatever car I am driving, so it can be all that bad.

 

BTW.. The only reason I am posting anything is several are intentional or unintentionally spreading "my opinions" on parity that are not actually my opinions 

[Brandon]

Don't read more into the statement than what's there...a process was followed and decisions made and that's what we find here today.

 

You say that like it is a negative.. I don't see it that way at all. 

[MPR22]

  One last thing, lots of people equate wins with parity..  IMO, that is not accurate at all.  If cars are really in a situation of "parity" the best drivers should win.. Right now without trying to offend anyone, I think it is very fair to say the "best" drivers in the class are not in NA cars. 

5 years ago you would have offended the class with that statement, at this point you are only offending the west coast studs and a few of the die hard 1.6 folks in the rest of the country.  So maybe 30 people. 

[Jim Drago]

Don't read more into the statement than what's there...a process was followed and decisions made and that's what we find here today.

and where is that.. so I don't read anything in to it? Seemed pretty clear? 

[Ron Alan]

!00% with Jim and Dave and anyone else who mentioned splitting hairs. Intentional or not the silence of the SMAC guys on here is a good thing...let the year play out and maybe next year as well!

 

For what its worth...this is how i view the importance of factors in determining potential podiums(have to assume equal tires in this and good power to weight)

 

DRIVER

set up...ability to roll speed and get to throttle

specific track

year of car

 

Of course i say this in general...take Daytona or a similar track and I'd flip this upside down!  Point is for all those on the newer end of the spectrum...work on yourself, understand setup and be patient before you believe the only reason you are not up front is because of the car you chose! 

[Brandon]

We're very, very close in terms of parity and now we're arguing over whether the split hair is red, brown, blonde, or black!

 

Me personally: I still have "spec platform" desires in the back of my head (to simplify future discussions and encourage entries of now mothballed cars) but I'm rapidly approaching the point of "parity attained" across all 4.

 

and where is that.. so I don't read anything in to it? Seemed pretty clear? 

[Bench Racer]

With that being said.. leave it alone for a year and let it play it out.   Slight advantage to any one car is fine.. 

Yes indeed...............

 

One last thing, lots of people equate wins with parity..  IMO, that is not accurate at all.  If cars are really in a situation of "parity" the best drivers should win.. Right now without offending anyone, I think it is very fair to say the "best" drivers in the class are not in NA cars. 

From my observations, could it be that maybe there are some very good 1.6's driven by very good drivers (non semi/pro drivers) that a bit more power supported the 1.6 to a better level.

[Jim Drago]

Thanks for clarifying as that is is not how I interpreted your post. I would agree with your opinion as well. 

[Jim Drago]

Yes indeed...............

 

From my observations, could it be that maybe there are some very good 1.6's driven by very good drivers (non semi/pro drivers) that a bit more power supported the 1.6 to a better level.

No idea what you are trying to say. I think what I posted was very clear. You are welcome to agree/disagree with my opinion. Just stating 'my personal" opinion.  

[speedengineer]

If only someone had lap simulation software to compare the equality of cars without variables such as track conditions and driver talent muddling the results.  Hmm...

[Bench Racer]

Right now without tring to offend anyone, I think it is very fair to say the "best" drivers in the class are not in NA cars. 

Your saying the best drivers are not in NA cars from your perspective. I'm saying there are some very good 1.6 cars (not only the couple 1.6's you ID as good cars ) that with the improved power is allowing some very good drivers in 1.6's to play near the pointy end in practice, qualifying or race. 

 

Maybe I'm going to have to splurge on some new SM7's and see if Loshak has time in his schedule for a weekend in my car, to make my point. 

[Bench Racer]

If only someone had lap simulation software to compare the equality of cars without variables such as track conditions and driver talent muddling the results.  Hmm...

Do you know of an affordable axle or driveshaft torque monitoring device?

There are very complex/$$$ devices used in $$$ up series. 

[Jim Drago]

Your saying the best drivers are not in NA cars from your perspective. I'm saying there are some very good 1.6 cars (not only the couple 1.6's you ID as good cars ) that with the improved power is allowing some very good drivers in 1.6's to play near the pointy end in practice, qualifying or race. 

 

Maybe I'm going to have to splurge on some new SM7's and see if Loshak has time in his schedule for a weekend in my car, to make my point. 

I'm sure there are several good cars that I am unaware of.  That being said...

 

I would love for that too happen on several levels...

 

Despite your opinions and in my best Ricky Bobby voice... With all due respect..  Your car and your driver are not as good as the best in SM So bring them both out and take a stab, I'm not worried and welcome any challenge as does everyone else in this class.  Be the first to shake both of your hands if I'm wrong and congratulate you. 

[Bench Racer]

In my very best personal voice with no disrespect, a two time SM National Champion Drago says with reference to a five time National Champion Loshak (E prod, DSR, H prod, F1000 and a different H prod car. Oh, and one year at the Runoffs he won H prod in the am and F1000 in the pm. Therefore your challenge must be my car.   If Kenny can get in my car first time for a race, no practice or qualify and do low 24's at the Farm on heat cycled out tires, I'm sure Loshak could do the job with fresh SM7's in my car, again IMHJ. Of course if he did, that would be another egg in the behind scenes basket/politics. 

[Steve Scheifler]

If only someone had lap simulation software to compare the equality of cars without variables such as track conditions and driver talent muddling the results. Hmm...

To what degree of accuracy do you believe it accounts for differences in things like suspension geometry and small amounts of weight relative to cornering speeds? I don't doubt that you've got a very useful tool, but in this class we are talking very small differences, ptretty much at the level of noise in most calculations. Straight line acceleration is one thing, but what we don't have is quantifiable differences in cornering potential so we can weigh it against power differences.

[Jim Drago]

In my very best personal voice with no disrespect, a two time SM National Champion Drago says with reference to a five time National Champion Loshak (E prod, DSR, H prod, F1000 and a different H prod car. Oh, and one year at the Runoffs he won H prod in the am and F1000 in the pm. Therefore your challenge must be my car.   If Kenny can get in my car first time for a race, no practice or qualify and do low 24's at the Farm on heat cycled out tires, I'm sure Loshak could do the job with fresh SM7's in my car, again IMHJ. Of course if he did, that would be another egg in the behind scenes basket/politics. 

Stop talking for a change.. Put your money where your mouth is and get him out there. Otherwise it is just more wasted time and more hot air coming from you.  And to your behind the scenes politics bullshit.. Spell it out, don't dance around. 

 

As Wheeler pointed out.. running at the front in a regional is not the same as running at the front or even being competitive at the majors when all the players show up, let alone winning. You can think and extrapolate all you want, but it is not the same, it's just not.  Again this isn't a me deal, there are several drivers in SM who can and do beat me on any given day.  Your boy would have to not beat only me, but beat them all! That's where the trouble comes in, he needs to beat me, Lamb, Berry, Rollan, Buras, Carbonell, Bolanos, Collum, Steyn, Haldeman, Clements all in the same weekend..( Like we all have) He has NEVER raced against that many quality competitors in one race or all his five Runoffs wins combined. We do it twice a weekend routinely.    

Winning a National championship is very difficult and a huge accomplishment by anyone in any class. I do respect the driving of anyone that can do that, winning five he certainly has my respect as a great driver as do all those Sm drivers I listed above. But if I am putting my money on the line.. I bet every one of them in their car over anyone you put in your car, including Loshak! And so would everyone else on that list.