83 replies to this topic

[Tom Sager]

Tyler’s exercise (2 cars back to back) is a good one for sure.    I think most people feel that the NA1.8 is very close to being competitive and if it needs help it’s only very slight.  I’m not familiar with Pitt but after looking at a couple youtube videos it’s clearly a track where a Spec Miata is operating in the higher RPM ranges more often and that is a plus for the NA1.8. 

At all of the tracks in my area where Majors are typically held (Blackhawk, Road America, Mid-Ohio and Gingerman) a Spec Miata accelerates most often in the lower RPM range where the NA 1.8 make less power, and significantly so.  Here’s a power comparison of a good VVT and a good NA1.8 (I own both).  This is taken from dyno reports that I have. They are from different dynos so I’ve interpolated a bit but this is a good representation.

 

5000 RPM                                VVT +8 Horsepower

5200                                       VVT +8

5400                                       VVT +8

5600                                       VVT +7

5800                                       VVT +4

6000                                       VVT +3

6200                                       VVT +2

6400                                       NA1.8 +1

6600                                       NA1.8 +4

6850                                       NA1.8 +4.5

 

Looking at Mid-Ohio Pro course which is probably an average track among the 4 that I mentioned, here is roughly the percentage of time per lap that a Spec Miata driver has foot to floor accelerating in 3 RPM ranges.  This should be a very close representation. 

Below 6100 RPM                   Advantage VVT                 68%

6100-6500                             About even both cars       18%

6500+                                    Advantage NA1.8             14%

 

Yes the NA1.8 weighs 75 pounds less but we know that from an acceleration standpoint, that weight makes little difference due to aerodynamic forces.

 

For cornering speeds, we know an NA1.6 is 150 pounds lighter than a VVT yet we don’t see on the track a big disparity in corning speeds between these two.  That might be due to the VVT’s greater power in the 2^nd half of corners, the overly sticky tires we are now using, the difference in front suspension geometry or a combination of all three.  I only see well driven 1.6 cars being only very slightly better in some corners.  The NA1.8 at 75 pounds heavier than a 1.6 loses a lot of that advantage.

 

My best laps at every track I’ve driven have come in my ’00 or ’01 cars.

 

Watkins Glen was mentioned.  The portion of time spent accelerating at that track below about 6200 RPM would likely make a very good case for the VVT or a ’99 as well. 

There are likely some tracks with a profile that is more favorable to a NA1.8 but that is likely a small minority.

 

This in a nutshell is why the NA1.8’s have disappeared in recent years.  They simply aren’t light enough given the power they make and where they make that power to compete with the newer cars.   Or they don’t make enough overall power throughout the RPM range.

[MPR22]

Stop talking for a change.. Put your money where your mouth is and get him out there. Otherwise it is just more wasted time and more hot air coming from you.  And to your behind the scenes politics bullshit.. Spell it out, don't dance around. 
 
As Wheeler pointed out.. running at the front in a regional is not the same as running at the front or even being competitive at the majors when all the players show up, let alone winning. You can think and extrapolate all you want, but it is not the same, it's just not.  Again this isn't a me deal, there are several drivers in SM who can and do beat me on any given day.  Your boy would have to not beat only me, but beat them all! That's where the trouble comes in, he needs to beat me, Lamb, Berry, Rollan, Buras, Carbonell, Bolanos, Collum, Steyn, Haldeman, Clements all in the same weekend..( Like we all have) He has NEVER raced against that many quality competitors in one race or all his five Runoffs wins combined. We do it twice a weekend routinely.    
Winning a National championship is very difficult and a huge accomplishment by anyone in any class. I do respect the driving of anyone that can do that, winning five he certainly has my respect as a great driver as do all those Sm drivers I listed above. But if I am putting my money on the line.. I bet every one of them in their car over anyone you put in your car, including Loshak! And so would everyone else on that list.

When you put it that way, i feel much better about my Majors quals and finishes this year. And you forgot McHavern, Kicera and Goring......it's like the 27 Yankees.

[Steve Scheifler]

I'm not sure that power disadvantage exists.. I feel fairly confident that if we built a 1.6 to the same levels as our NB cars, the NA would also be fastest in a straight line. Hard to know any of this for certain, not so much that I want to spend my own time and money ( again) to find out. I'm now a just racing what is best for me and my guys. Whatever the rules may be, we will race them and do our best to win. Nothing that comes (IMO) will be so far left or right that I can't win in whatever car I am driving, so it can be all that bad.

BTW.. The only reason I am posting anything is several are intentional or unintentionally spreading "my opinions" on parity that are not actually my opinions

As you said, we ran with one of the strongest NB cars in very little traffic. If what you are saying is true then we must still be significantly down on power compared to what you believe you could get from a 1.6. It is possible of course, but I really doubt that. Are there one or two HP to be found "legally" on our cars? Maybe, but it would take more than that to equal and then surpass the straight line performance of your car through much of the relevant RPM range. PM me a price to accomplish that on our spare car, then we can put it to the test.

[Erik Hardy]

lol What did I start, I'm glad I don't have internet at home. I shared a personal observation and opinion, but yall took it to the battlefield. You guys are entertaining as $hit and need to spend more time making your cars faster in the garage!

 

Steve - You can't cry wolf everyday of the week, the internet doesn't work that way, 1 wolf cry per year! To claim both of your 1.6's are significantly down on power is atrocious with a big wet willied slap in your competitors face. My interpretation of that statement is the reason why you are running at the front of majors suddenly is because your that much better of a driver than everyone else. Multiple incar videos at different tracks show both of your 1.6s are very strong, hence the slight overdog rumors. Go tell Pranther your significantly down on power...

 

 

As you said, we ran with one of the strongest NB cars in very little traffic. If what you are saying is true then we must still be significantly down on power compared to what you believe you could get from a 1.6. It is possible of course, but I really doubt that. Are there one or two HP to be found "legally" on our cars? Maybe, but it would take more than that to equal and then surpass the straight line performance of your car through much of the relevant RPM range. PM me a price to accomplish that on our spare car, then we can put it to the test.

[Jim Drago]

As you said, we ran with one of the strongest NB cars in very little traffic. If what you are saying is true then we must still be significantly down on power compared to what you believe you could get from a 1.6. It is possible of course, but I really doubt that. Are there one or two HP to be found "legally" on our cars? Maybe, but it would take more than that to equal and then surpass the straight line performance of your car through much of the relevant RPM range. PM me a price to accomplish that on our spare car, then we can put it to the test.

 

If what you are saying is true .... Have I lied to you in the past?

 

 

A few things.. With the weight difference, we should both agree the 1.6 has to enter the banking faster than the NB correct? Not turn in to apex, but at track out.  

You have the data, I assume you checked it? Is that the case?  If that is the case and your cars are slower  at S/F on laps not aided by draft, then I would agree your cars are down to one of the best NB cars in the country.  

 

As far as me doing the spare car...

I would want to be able to do the car from engine, trans,diff,axles and rear wheel bearings.  No idea on the exact amount but likely in the $12,500-15000 range as it very time consuming and may be 1-2 engines/heads, multiple intake and exhaust manifolds, exhausts and lots of testing and I don't think we would have any issue to be two better than either of your cars and would be to the letter of the rules, not tech shed etc.  I would want to be able to go through the car like I go through my own to make a fair comparison.  

[Steve Scheifler]

lol What did I start, I'm glad I don't have internet at home. I shared a personal observation and opinion, but yall took it to the battlefield. You guys are entertaining as $hit and need to spend more time making your cars faster in the garage!

Steve - You can't cry wolf everyday of the week, the internet doesn't work that way, 1 wolf cry per year! To claim both of your 1.6's are significantly down on power is atrocious with a big wet willied slap in your competitors face. My interpretation of that statement is the reason why you are running at the front of majors suddenly is because your that much better of a driver than everyone else. Multiple incar videos at different tracks show both of your 1.6s are very strong, hence the slight overdog rumors. Go tell Pranther your significantly down on power...

Erik, I do not understand. All I am saying is, based on video between Tom and Jim that you can watch for yourself, and having run our two very equal cars for countless laps at the same track, it is my opinion that Jim had a small advantage in the oval and the first part of the straight. I never said it is a big advantage, but in this class any advantage you can see is "significant". Jim suggests that we should have, the advantage there. So, that means we need to first gain a bit to break even, then gain more to achieve his theoretical advantage. Right?

And I said that I don't expect to be "even" since we have other theoretical advantages. So how is this crying wolf???

Jim, it's reall easy to say that the lighter car should have certain advantages, but that has never been quantified. I suspect that all else equal it will be like most differences in this class, lost in the noise because all else is never equal and you can never account for every variable. In some cases video is better than any calculation.

[Steve Scheifler]

Also Erik, please ask people with these other videos to post them, because the only NBs we have been passing in the straights were mid-pack cars and/or drivers. Talk about crying wolf, I've been hearing from all directions about us mowing down 1.8s but nobody has offered up the video. Then look at our cars in action at BFR & Gateway against some of the better NBs and things look very different.

[zoomzoom22]

Stop talking for a change.. Put your money where your mouth is and get him out there. Otherwise it is just more wasted time and more hot air coming from you.  And to your behind the scenes politics bullshit.. Spell it out, don't dance around. 

 

As Wheeler pointed out.. running at the front in a regional is not the same as running at the front or even being competitive at the majors when all the players show up, let alone winning. You can think and extrapolate all you want, but it is not the same, it's just not.  Again this isn't a me deal, there are several drivers in SM who can and do beat me on any given day.  Your boy would have to not beat only me, but beat them all! That's where the trouble comes in, he needs to beat me, Lamb, Berry, Rollan, Buras, Carbonell, Bolanos, Collum, Steyn, Haldeman, Clements all in the same weekend..( Like we all have) He has NEVER raced against that many quality competitors in one race or all his five Runoffs wins combined. We do it twice a weekend routinely.  

Winning a National championship is very difficult and a huge accomplishment by anyone in any class. I do respect the driving of anyone that can do that, winning five he certainly has my respect as a great driver as do all those Sm drivers I listed above. But if I am putting my money on the line.. I bet every one of them in their car over anyone you put in your car, including Loshak! And so would everyone else on that list.  

 

I put my money on any of those drivers in your list even if Loshak was in your Drago rocket.  I just don't think anyone jumps in a front running car and beats those drivers at their own game in spec cars.  If it were that easy Loshak would be winning a ton of races in Trans-Am in TA2 spec series.  I personally see Dillon routinely finishing ahead of him as just one example.  Loshak mad props and is certainly a very talented driver and I would push my chips on him in a lot of situations, but my chips get pushed elsewhere if this SM race was on. 

[Erik Hardy]

Sorry Steve, that may have been too aggressive of wording. When I watch Drago's and Tom's videos from Gateway, I personally would rather be driving the 1.6. When I watch Hille's video from blackhawk, I again would say there was advantage with the 1.6. Your comment about being significantly down on power, initiated my aggressive wording, so sorry about that. 

 

Specifically at the 19:40 Mark. Missed apex, partially slide through the corner but still inched away.

https://www.youtube....h?v=D_k1RgTjyEU

 

This is obviously splitting hairs, with mixed opinions, so I won't comment anymore. 

[Rob Burgoon]

Sorry Steve, that may have been too aggressive of wording. When I watch Drago's and Tom's videos from Gateway, I personally would rather be driving the 1.6. When I watch Hille's video from blackhawk, I again would say there was advantage with the 1.6. Your comment about being significantly down on power, initiated my aggressive wording, so sorry about that. 

 

Specifically at the 19:40 Mark. Missed apex, partially slide through the corner but still inched away.

https://www.youtube....h?v=D_k1RgTjyEU

 

This is obviously splitting hairs, with mixed opinions, so I won't comment anymore. 

 

Do I hear a lift?

[wheel]

Of bigger interest is how to incorporate the new cars -  2006 and up.  

[Rob Burgoon]

Of bigger interest is how to incorporate the new cars -  2006 and up.  

 

Make them the car to have in 5 years, deprecate the rest.

[James York]

Of bigger interest is how to incorporate the new cars -  2006 and up.  

 

skip that model and go to the 2016 package in 5 or 6 years.

[Steve Scheifler]

Sorry Steve, that may have been too aggressive of wording. When I watch Drago's and Tom's videos from Gateway, I personally would rather be driving the 1.6. When I watch Hille's video from blackhawk, I again would say there was advantage with the 1.6. Your comment about being significantly down on power, initiated my aggressive wording, so sorry about that.

Specifically at the 19:40 Mark. Missed apex, partially slide through the corner but still inched away.


This is obviously splitting hairs, with mixed opinions, so I won't comment anymore.

Erik, I'll look at the video later, but by no means stop challenging anything you see differently. I'd like to think these forums are good for more than patting ourselves on the back and monologue whining. If I haven't made my case then I'll consider any other perspectives.

As for which car you would rather be driving from the video, I'm not saying you are wrong. My ONLY point in this one case was that contrary to what many seem to think, I believe we are still at an acceleration disadvantage under some circumstances, but I also say THAT'S OK if overall it is offset by other factors. Of course I would prefer that they be equal, not just equivalent, but I've always known that's not possible. What I aim to establish now is whether, as many feel, we now have an advantage on both power AND handling. I am certain not, at least OUR cars.

[Steve Scheifler]

Sorry Steve, that may have been too aggressive of wording. When I watch Drago's and Tom's videos from Gateway, I personally would rather be driving the 1.6. When I watch Hille's video from blackhawk, I again would say there was advantage with the 1.6. Your comment about being significantly down on power, initiated my aggressive wording, so sorry about that.

Specifically at the 19:40 Mark. Missed apex, partially slide through the corner but still inched away.


This is obviously splitting hairs, with mixed opinions, so I won't comment anymore.

Erik, wait till you leave the office next time or use earphones so you can turn up the sound! As I think Rob said, there is a lift, in fact a big lift. It may well be that Tom lifted as well having gone a bit wide at apex, otherwise the video would actually suggest a big torque advantage to the camera car to have stayed that close.

[JRHille]

Not that it matters, but there was no lift at 19:40. Slight wheelspin maybe screwed it up, and then running over the exit curb drowns out the sound. Once I'm flat I'm flat.

No side in this argument, but don't think the 1.6 is an overdog. Just clearing it up

[Steve Scheifler]

Really? I hear a lot of wheel spin at other times but with earphones in this sounds different, going soft then abruptly back under load. Perhaps it's wheel spin overlapped by Tom's exhaust note but every time I listen it sounds like a lift. Not that it matters, the point is that your acceleration dropped off briefly before Tom pulled the gap.

[Tom Scheifler]

For parity discussion

http://mazdaracers.c...ge-5#entry90299

[Tom Scheifler]

The video is vital to being able to discount data-trace anomalies that occur due to getting the draft, getting bumped or getting skunked. What we need to do is look at clean lap data and video is essential to. The SMAC is waiting to consider all relevant data.

 

Data and video posted for analysis.  Very interested to hear your assessment.