284 replies to this topic

[ChrisA]

This is my perspective as a guy who has options on how to spend his disposable dollars for a weekend of fun. SCCA racing is amazingly exhilarating and challenging. As a guy who has no aspiration or ability to make a living in racing it is very difficult to accept the trade off of car damage for something that is meant to be fun. In addition the vision of cars (in all classes) being carted off in various stages of crumple-ization (I made that word up) is not something that family or non racers take kindly to as observers for the weekend. Trust me, saying to the wife to "not worry because that won't happen to me" does not pass the BS sniffer of my wife and I presume 99pct of non racing spouses. It is likely a different perspective for the highly skilled racers who generally are working with the same individuals at the front, but I imagine can be frustrating for them when they are catching the slow drivers. Meaning, no car contact would be good for all. While SM is the most popular class in SCCA, I believe that it would be over subscribed consistently if SCCA could tackle the issue of car contact. Certainly at a regional level, I think that there is potential. I think if there was some way to measure how many people choose something else than SCCA because of car contact, that that would be a starting point. There are tons of opportunities to get on track and although they are not technically racing, those events at least in Florida typically sell out. Keeping the class popular and at a high caliber needs to keep the customers coming in who are happy to spend their dispo-dollars. The young racers who have bigger aspirations will likely move on through SM to bigger and better things. The people who are doing this for fun ultimately have the most control on how great an experience it is. I think it is possible to improve things for all with a better handle on what to do about car contact.

 

As someone with a shoestring (a tattered one at that) budget, concern about damage impacts me a lot. I have to consider risks of venue, car counts and even weather when I do a race. I wish that wasn't the case.   Damage from contact is money and time just thrown away, which is not easily recuperated. When I see some of the damage caused by overly aggressive and sometime stupid maneuvers, especially from repeat offenders, I've wondered if requiring them to pay for the repairs to the other cars would quell this problem... But then things could get real nasty if damage was extensive. Ultimately, I think a combination of driver education, electronic log books (with NASA cross-ref) and training the workers on what/when/how to call incidents of behavior & contact will be need to improve things for the long haul.

[lillyweld]

Am I missing something? I have the Supps for my next two races at MO & RA, and they contain the following language:

 

"If you are involved in contact, you are to report to black flag at the conclusion of your session/race." (MO Supps page 4)

 

"A competitor involved in contact . . . must report directly to impound in the racecar, and report to the Steward." (RA June Sprints Entry Packet page 9)

 

I believe similar language was in the Supps for COTA. Is this not being enforced?

[Bench Racer]

Am I missing something? I have the Supps for my next two races at MO & RA, and they contain the following language:

 

"If you are involved in contact, you are to report to black flag at the conclusion of your session/race." (MO Supps page 4)

 

"A competitor involved in contact . . . must report directly to impound in the racecar, and report to the Steward." (RA June Sprints Entry Packet page 9)

 

I believe similar language was in the Supps for COTA. Is this not being enforced?

This ^ is a threat, without follow through it means nothing. There have been yearly letters/supp. words in the CenDiv for years to no avail. 

 

If we have dishonest characters driving cars and we have some, the above falls down a black hole. If the corner workers call in car numbers from contact folks know they had better report to black flag station. If they don't report to black flag station follow through is required and points should be added to said driver, teaching process. Road America as an example would require lets say 14 corner workers/race to call in.

 

With no disrespect to NASA, a dictatorship functions fast and furious, or underperforming worker bee's of the dictatorship are history.

[Brian Tone]

I ran a WRL (World Racing League, think chump/AER style) race last month, they have a system that works and would be super easy to implement.  They give each driver a 3D bar code sticker that goes on the helmet, with that they have a software that is web based so that anytime there is a car to car contact (they're draconian contact) that driver is pulled in and their helmet bar code is photographed and uploaded to a web based data base.  If you're deemed not at fault for the incident your 'demerit' is removed but the driver at fault is logged on his license.  If the corner workers miss the incident, the drivers are to self report to impound and provide video/evidence of contact and the same penalties apply.  If they notice a pattern forming for contact they simply won't let you race - they scan the helmet barcode as part of the registration process.

 

Whatever the process is it has to be enforced.  One more thing -  I also don't understand being slammed from behind coming to the green flag on the start.  It happened to me at VIR a good 8 seconds before the green flag flew, and the hit was probably 15mph faster than I was going and I was going the same speed as the guy in front of me when i'm 12" from his bumper.  I get it if you're clowning your buddy but I didn't know this guy from Adam....

[Danica Davison]

This concept (incident tracking across events) has been tried a number of times.  The generic name is 'Red Book'.  It invariably founders, for one or more of the following reasons:
 
1.  The person(s) pushing the implementation (usually the Executive Steward or the Chairman of the Stewards Program) cycles out after their term of office, and the new person has no interest in pursuing the initiative. This is another problem. If they have no interest in pursuing an initiative that will minimize the risks of safety, then they don't deserve holding that power.  I don't care how long they have been in the club, what they have done, how many votes they got, or how big their ego is. At the end of the day ... it is more than just our money spent on body work.  It is about the safety of the competitors. 
 
2.  Resistance from event officials (i.e. older/old-line stewards), who simply chose not to participate.  There is (presently) no real sanction against this sort of behavior  (see also: Florida).  Same thing applies to these individuals.  I don't understand the Florida reference. What did I miss? 
 
3.  The sheer volume of incidents at larger/more ‘eventful’ events overwhelms the process.  (Operating stewards are often on a very tight operating schedule.)  They may have a tight operating schedule, but down in Florida ... the list of stewards that are working every weekend takes up almost a quarter of a page.  Every time I have ever been in the stewards room ... half of them are just sitting around and talking because they are trading off sessions.  The SOM sits in a room with 3 or more stewards. I think they have time. I don't know about every where else, but at majors/super tours/big regions ... this should be zero issue as they should have plenty of hands on deck to split up the workload.  If NASA can do it...so can SCCA. 
 
4.  Lack of consistency across events/stewards.  One steward’s ‘contact’ is another steward’s ‘racing incident’.  Contact is contact. If the steward thinks it is a racing incident, they can write that.  if they think it is avoidable contact, they can write that too.  But it says something.  If they see someone getting in a "racing incident" every weekend ... maybe they need to look at it a little more closely/differently. 
 
5.  There are real questions of fairness, and of concern about painting targets on individuals.  How would you paint targets on individuals who don't deserve it? The only reason you would have notes on your name is if you get in incidents on track.  I don't see how that is a problem, but maybe you can explain it more for me?
 
 
It is not so much a technology problem as it is an organizational problem.  This lack of consistency and paper trail across events is an artifact of Club Racing’s history, culture, and lack of a real and consistent central authority.  I agree there may be an organizational problem. But, this isn't something that can't be fixed. This org problem starts at the top (national office).  There is no paper trail because SCCA is still practicing the same methods they were in the 1700s (yes that's a joke but you get the point).  Another reason there is no paper trail is because we are using paper! See, I work for a paper company, and we know that paper is not the most efficient way anymore of handling business/processes.  Now, my paper company is heavily investing in packaging and logistics services.  We are adjusting with the times in order to stay successful and SCCA isn't. SCCA would never make it in our industry because they would still invest in paper while saying "because that is the way it has always been done" and they would fail.  Another example, ChumpCar has now adopted electronic membership cards and has done away with plastic cards that get lost anyways.  Why hasn't the SCCA?  We need someone from outside the SCCA to come in and be President, who understands this, and change this org problem.
 
I am not trying to rain on anyone’s parade.  I think that this would be an excellent idea.  It has worked for limited spans of time and under local conditions.  We do this informally at Summit Point (i.e. track particular actors).  The problem is that incidents elsewhere are invisible to us.
 
This is an excellent concept.  There are really significant implementation challenges.

 

This was not in any way attacking your challenges personally.  I think it is a healthy debate and the points you brought up are fair.  Clearly, this is a concern and not by just SM guys, so things need to change which will be uncomfortable for SCCA, but that comes with all changes.  If anyone thinks SM guys have an issue with contact ... ask a ST, Prod, GT, IT guy and they will have a heart attack just thinking about getting a tire mark on their car.

[John Nesbitt]

This was not in any way attacking your challenges personally.  I think it is a healthy debate and the points you brought up are fair.  Clearly, this is a concern and not by just SM guys, so things need to change which will be uncomfortable for SCCA, but that comes with all changes.  If anyone thinks SM guys have an issue with contact ... ask a ST, Prod, GT, IT guy and they will have a heart attack just thinking about getting a tire mark on their car.

 

 

John

 

No offence taken.  You make very good points about the SCCA's needing to evolve if it wants to remain relevant.  I do observe that SCCA is a private voluntary organization, and thus different from, for example, a paper company.  (And I used 'paper trail' in the sense of 'maintaining a record'.)  Here is something I posted on apexspeed a while back that sums up the challenge of change (emphasis added).

 

John

 

 

As one who has invested a great deal of time and effort in trying to move my part of SCCA forward, I have standing to speak in this sausage-making discussion.

It is extremely difficult to change the culture of a long-established voluntary organization. Power is too diffuse and incumbents (i.e. long-time members with an investment in the current architecture) are deeply resistant to any change.


I can sum it all up in an anecdote.

A few years ago, I attended a NEDiv convention. Jeff Dahnert, then SCCA President, spoke at the plenary, and opened with a joke:

Q: Why does SCCA accept only credit cards?

A: Because nobody wants change.


Dead silence in the room.

[Rob Burgoon]

John

 

No offence taken.  You make very good points about the SCCA's needing to evolve if it wants to remain relevant.  I do observe that SCCA is a private voluntary organization, and thus different from, for example, a paper company.  (And I used 'paper trail' in the sense of 'maintaining a record'.)  Here is something I posted on apexspeed a while back that sums up the challenge of change (emphasis added).

 

John

 

 

As one who has invested a great deal of time and effort in trying to move my part of SCCA forward, I have standing to speak in this sausage-making discussion.

It is extremely difficult to change the culture of a long-established voluntary organization. Power is too diffuse and incumbents (i.e. long-time members with an investment in the current architecture) are deeply resistant to any change.


I can sum it all up in an anecdote.

A few years ago, I attended a NEDiv convention. Jeff Dahnert, then SCCA President, spoke at the plenary, and opened with a joke:

Q: Why does SCCA accept only credit cards?

A: Because nobody wants change.


Dead silence in the room.

 

Poor Jeff.

 

Better orgs beckon folks.

[38bfast]

Well after attending VIR super tour this last weekend I was not aware of any corrective action / or penalties. I did witness many incidents that IMHO needed to be addressed

[Danny Steyn]

 

 

This is an excellent concept.  There are really significant implementation challenges.

 

John, I have a GREAT deal of respect for you, but to hear you utter these words, really makes me sad and concerned for the future of our club. So I ask you WHY? Why are our senior members so threatened by change. Is it because it attracts people who seek authority and are threatened by technology possibly undermining their authority? I really want to know what is holding us back. I am an older businessman, continuously seeking new younger talent to introduce to my business to ensure that it remains profitable and relevant in a rapidly changing environment. I struggle to see why this sentiment is not embraced by our club!

[Peter Olivola]

Speaking strictly from my own experience, I would offer the observation that the diverse structure of the club has beaten the older members down who have tried to effect change and seen their efforts swallowed up in the marshmallow.  

 

I know I have narrowed my focus on that effort, looking for any small victory.

 

I don't see technophobia as the problem.  Many older stewards already carry tablets/laptops with them at the track and would use them more if there was more to use on them.  As an example of a recent effort to expand the use of technology in a very small way, registrars requested, in addition to the current Probation and Suspension lists which are sent out weekly to registrars and stewards, that a list of uncompleted historic Probation and Suspension records be made available against a subterfuge of rejoining under a new member number.  It failed, not because of users but because the data is virtually useless as many records were manually "completed" some time ago to clear the database.  There were other problems with the file which further called the value of the exercise into question.

 

There are frequent expressions of frustration from younger, more tech oriented members, at the club's lack of implementation of technologically driven solutions.  As someone who has been working in tech for the past 30+ years I recognize the cost component that keystones those aspirations.  The club does not have the financial resources to much more than keep the doors open at this point.  What it has is being put into reestablishing a connection to the grassroots enthusiast with programs like Track Night in America.

 

There is an old and unfortunate answer to any question about why something isn't being done:  Money.  Who pays?

 

John, I have a GREAT deal of respect for you, but to hear you utter these words, really makes me sad and concerned for the future of our club. So I ask you WHY? Why are our senior members so threatened by change. Is it because it attracts people who seek authority and are threatened by technology possibly undermining their authority? I really want to know what is holding us back. I am an older businessman, continuously seeking new younger talent to introduce to my business to ensure that it remains profitable and relevant in a rapidly changing environment. I struggle to see why this sentiment is not embraced by our club!

[John Nesbitt]

John, I have a GREAT deal of respect for you, but to hear you utter these words, really makes me sad and concerned for the future of our club. So I ask you WHY? Why are our senior members so threatened by change. Is it because it attracts people who seek authority and are threatened by technology possibly undermining their authority? I really want to know what is holding us back. I am an older businessman, continuously seeking new younger talent to introduce to my business to ensure that it remains profitable and relevant in a rapidly changing environment. I struggle to see why this sentiment is not embraced by our club!

 

 

Danny

 

You ask a very fair question.  My answer in one sentence might be:  The Club has not adapted well to the vast social, economic, and demographic changes since the 1970’s.  The Club’s culture, organization, and governance – starting with the BOD - stymie reform.

 

At my level, and focusing on the thread topic, two sentences in my previous posts sum it up:

 

The person(s) pushing the implementation (usually the Executive Steward or the Chairman of the Stewards Program) cycles out after their term of office, and the new person has no interest in pursuing the initiative.

 

And,

 

It is extremely difficult to change the culture of a long-established voluntary organization.  Power is too diffuse and incumbents (i.e. long-time members with an investment in the current architecture) are deeply resistant to any change.

 

 

Early in this decade, I spent a lot of time and energy at the National and Divisional level, working with like-minded stewards to improve our process.  It was inexpressibly difficult to move things forward.  And, once the leadership cycled out, and without the active support of the BOD, our work pretty much sank without a trace.

 

To call this discouraging would be an understatement.

 

Like Peter, I have narrowed my focus to those areas where I can make a difference (i.e. my Region).  I put a lot of my energy into recruiting and training new, forward-looking stewards.

 

<plug>

When I recruit a prospective steward, I look for three things:

 

1.  Integrity

2.  People skills

3.  Someone who is reasonably successful in life.  S/he does not have to be a CEO, but must be comfortable in their own skin (not compensating at the track).

 

We can teach the technical skills, but we cannot teach character.  I am actively seeking new stewards.

</plug>

 

 

Coming back to the thread topic, whatever comes of this, put some real thought/effort into sustainability.  This sort of initiative will not run itself.

 

John

[Todd Lamb]

Just a little update:

 

I've had extensive conversation at VIR with Deanna about this, and also at Barber this weekend with Mazda. The SMAC discussed last week on our call.

 

I would like everyone to write the CRB a letter demanding action (with specifics  such as here: http://mazdaracers.c...rack-incidents/). As well, the SMAC/Mazda will be working with SCCA to push things on our end.

 

There is so much resistance to change - it's time to round up the troops and try to make something happen.

[FTodaro]

Just a little update:

 

I've had extensive conversation at VIR with Deanna about this, and also at Barber this weekend with Mazda. The SMAC discussed last week on our call.

 

I would like everyone to write the CRB a letter demanding action (with specifics  such as here: http://mazdaracers.c...rack-incidents/). As well, the SMAC/Mazda will be working with SCCA to push things on our end.

 

There is so much resistance to change - it's time to round up the troops and try to make something happen.

I agree, I wrote a letter last week. If need be i would be happy to get the group together that did the last Petition, I cannot imagine any driver that would not support a call to action for SCCA to may changes to rule enforcement and policing of unnecessary and dangerous contact.

 

Last year we sought out help from Mazda who i understand is also concerned, SCCA has to step up if they want to keep the club healthy.

 

To me a contact impound (that is strictly enforced)  is so easy as a first step, any resistance to this is just a BS excuse. 

 

IMO.

[38bfast]

Frank I think your right. It's time to get a lot of names together on one message. As well as Todd has requested that everyone write a letter to the CRB

[Jim Creighton]

Guys, there is past proof that this does work. The very first year of Spec Miata National racing, there was a steward assigned to prevent on track incidences in SEDiv, Toni Creighton. After keeping everyone to nearly 10 PM at Sebring after the first National race of the year so she could assign all the penalties, there were none the next weekend at Palm beach. And for the most part, the on track racing was clean and without much carnage for the entire year in SEDiv.

 

It does work. I'm not sure what funded this if anything. Neither of us remember being paid. I would think in SEDiv it would take two or three SM stewards since we often race on the same weekend in the north and in the south to cover all the races. And I also think $10 per entry would for all races including the Super Tours would be enough to cover costs. Last year we had about 3200 SM, SMSE, etc entries in all sanctioned events not including Majors. Some of those entries were double counted when there were two sanction numbers per weekend. There were 23 weekend events plus 4 Majors. So, I'd estimate a fund of close to $25000 for about 25 weekends or $1000 per weekend. That's probably a fair figure for the expense and a little left for doing the "job".

 

The one thing you need to insist upon is getting stewards who will take action. You don't need more of the same. It needs to be someone who will take a driver aside and have a good talking to and if that fails, send him or her home.

 

Good luck with this. There will be push back. Some do not want to give up their power.

[Ron Alan]

This is not intended to be a smart ass comment but a serious question so I and others buy in. What exactly is the money for? In this instance a volunteer organization needs money to fund a pro active contact impound or something of the sort...what are racers paying for to get stewards to not look the other way and or take the easy route out??

[John Nesbitt]

This is not intended to be a smart ass comment but a serious question so I and others buy in. What exactly is the money for? In this instance a volunteer organization needs money to fund a pro active contact impound or something of the sort...what are racers paying for to get stewards to not look the other way and or take the easy route out??

 

A problem with a dedicated 'contact steward' is continuity.  Suppose, for example you wanted one person to fulfill that role at all Eastern Super Tour events.  First, you would have to find a suitable person.  Second, s/he would have to commit to travelling to every event (from Florida to Wisconsin).  Normally, stewards work events within a reasonable drive of home.

 

Funding (some of) that person's expenses might make the assignment more feasible for that person.

 

The key is to find the right steward (i.e. willing to have the hard conversations).

[Johnny D]

Who are the "dedicated staffing with a series race director, administrator and technical inspector" right now ?

 

Just asking

J~

 

Offering a heightened experience for both competitors and race fans, Hoosier Super Tour events include segmented timing and scoring, up to three static cameras broadcasting on-track action live at SCCA.com, a “Super Tour Radio presented by Hoosier Racing Tire” team of announcers providing consistent insight and entertainment heard at tracks or online at SCCA.com, and dedicated staffing with a series race director, administrator and technical inspector. Super Tour dates will also have enhanced weekend social activities.

[Danica Davison]

The one thing you need to insist upon is getting stewards who will take action. You don't need more of the same. It needs to be someone who will take a driver aside and have a good talking to and if that fails, send him or her home.
 
Good luck with this. There will be push back. Some do not want to give up their power.

 

Give up their power? This needs to change. If a steward is giving push back for keeping drivers safe because of a political/ego reason... then they shouldn't be a steward.

[Jim Creighton]

John and all, as many of you who know me, I say it like it is. My comments are based on years of observations at many different race tracks in many different areas. And I am not a Steward. I've been asked to join them but I've always felt I can do more in the positions I currently hold.

 

When and If this ever becomes a reality, I'll be glad to give my honest opinion on those who are selected. And as John Nesbitt pointed, continuity is very important. Find the right people and your problems will go away one way or another.

 

The current officials for Super Tour are for all classes. You are asking for someone for SM.

 

Go for it.