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Is it time for an On Track Compliance Chief (TCC)

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#221
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Someone recently 2017 was DQ'ed. IIRC, it was posted on this site.


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#222
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Yes.  So it's March 2017.  Should we assume that the requests late last year for better review and enforcement practices won't result in any changes this year? 

The plan as I understand it is they are rolling out a pilot project in the Super tour, but that could be to little to late. I was hoping that after all the noise we made last year that more would be done. its disappointing. Personally, i am going to be more inclined to throw paper, I am done with it.  However, if there is no point system in place or punishment it won't change much.

 

I hate to do the Monday morning review, but to me it looks like the crash was happening before Mr. Pink got to the apex (he was in the wrong place at the wrong time) , the overtaking car was coming in to hot and was not going to make the turn. That is a difficult corner to pass, it has to be done in the braking zone not the apex, once you turn in your committed.  i have been taken out there.


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#223
Topher

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The letter was posted to encourage the SM community to reach out to the CRB and express their opinion regarding the process

In my mind, the cause and culpability of the contact is not in question. 

 

I don't seek validation, or the social media persecution of another driver, but to change a faulty system.

 

Peter, the penalties and points system appears reasonable. How is currently being implemented, and what is the timeline for expanding the program out of the Super Tour level?



#224
Peter Olivola

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I apply the rules, I don't make them.  I'm not in a position to comment on if/when something will change in the rule book.

 

I will suggest that complaints without suggested specific solutions will not accomplish much.  My challenge to the SM competitor community is not about assigning fault, it's about seeking a common understanding of the rules, their application and how the process, including driver on track behavior, can be improved.  

 

One action that has worked in the past and will work now and in the future, is for the competitor community to recognize its shared responsibility with rules compliance.  In this case, if you felt the situation wasn't being handled properly, you had an obligation to file a protest.  That is the mechanism by which anyone can seek redress.  Protests, whether filed or not, send a strong message to both stewards and rules makers.  Not filing a protest indicates you don't consider yourself part of the process.  That shared responsibility is an integral part of how the SCCA has functioned since its founding.

 

A call for more specific definitions of what can or should happen in close, wheel to wheel competition fails to recognize the wide variations in how incidents occur.  The current rules provide for stewards to exercise their judgement.  If you think that should be changed, you'll need to provide specifics, not just for the incident depicted in the video, but for every conceivable incident situation.  But you have a much more immediate means to seek redress.  Use the protest system.  Is it guaranteed to produce the outcome you seek?  Of course not and you need to be prepared for an unfavorable determination.

 

At this point, I do not see a cohesive response from the SM competitor community.  Incidents I have witnessed, issued paper on and adjudicated indicate to me there is a wide range of understanding that does not support the club going outside existing procedures to remedy.

 

The letter was posted to encourage the SM community to reach out to the CRB and express their opinion regarding the process

In my mind, the cause and culpability of the contact is not in question. 

 

I don't seek validation, or the social media persecution of another driver, but to change a faulty system.

 

Peter, the penalties and points system appears reasonable. How is currently being implemented, and what is the timeline for expanding the program out of the Super Tour level?



#225
Peter Olivola

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GCR pg 3

 

In all societies where men compete with one another - and in which societies,
pray, do they not? - there must be laws to regulate that competition.
The extent to which that competition is carried, whether by intensity
or sophistication, determines the degree of complexity of the necessary
laws; and the extent to which those laws are willingly accepted determines,
no less, the degree of civilization of that society.
Translated from Thales of Miletus, c 600 BC.


#226
Todd Lamb

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The problem is with the process and the execution of the rules.

 

SCCA does in fact have a pilot program in place for the Super Tour events, and I encourage anyone to utilize it if needed. I have only been to Sebring Super Tour this year but I was able to utilize the pilot program successfully there. I got taken out in T3 by an out of class car and lost out on the win, so I asked for paperwork to protest in impound. I was told I didn't need to file paperwork (yeah we've all heard that one right?) but this time the contact steward, as part of the pilot program, reviewed my video and the video of the offender (who felt he did nothing wrong) on the spot. All I really wanted was the offender to understand what he did wrong, because that's ultimately the goal in order to modify driving behavior.

 

After review of both videos, the contact steward explained to the offender what he did wrong and what he could have done to avoid making contact. We all shook hands and walked away better informed. In this case I didn't feel like it was intentional and the lesson was learned, so I didn't feel like a penalty was necessary.

 

So in summary, give the pilot program a chance, but at the same time we need as racers to keep giving the feedback to the CRB  with letters (and via those Majors post-event questionnaires). The goal is to have this level of accountability at ALL Majors and hopefully regionals as well.


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#227
Brandon

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All I really wanted was the offender to understand what he did wrong, because that's ultimately the goal in order to modify driving behavior.

 

After review of both videos, the contact steward explained to the offender what he did wrong and what he could have done to avoid making contact. We all shook hands and walked away better informed. In this case I didn't feel like it was intentional and the lesson was learned, so I didn't feel like a penalty was necessary.

 

So in summary, give the pilot program a chance, but at the same time we need as racers to keep giving the feedback to the CRB  with letters (and via those Majors post-event questionnaires). The goal is to have this level of accountability at ALL Majors and hopefully regionals as well.

 

This was my goal regarding any protests I filed last year.  None were upheld with respect to any official ruling ("racing incident" or told that's what it would be ruled) so not entirely a productive result for changing of behavior. Yet if it's left to the drivers (without a protest), there will be animosity and "I didn't do anything wrong" positions taken.

 

Someone in an official capacity needs to be comfortable in making a determination of how the incident can be avoided in the future but not necessarily review it to determine fault and assign penalties (if any).  Make it a teachable moment instead of blame-able (that a word?) one.

 

It's encouraging to see this being addressed so I thank whomever within the competition committees (CRB or BoD) who proposed and implemented this.

Here's hoping they can come up with a workable process that can be utilized at the regional level.


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#228
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All,

 

This is somewhat tangential to the topic but related. I was wondering on the drive home from the race weekend if it was possible to quantify what constitutes a dive bomb pass. Everyone says wow that sure was a gutsy pass. The problem is that when a dive bomb pass is actually completed without incident, there is really no motivation for anyone to look at the pass. It is only when the pass results in contact that the pass is looked at and potentially judged to be a dive bomb. In a successful dive bomb, it requires that the other driver give way to allow the dive bomb to be pulled off. This is not right. This is not quality driving. Drivers do not learn until after the fact of someone elses car being mangled.

 

So the idea is, can we put criteria in place that can objectively be looked at and judged to be an unsafe divebomb even if it didn't result in contact? Further and more related to the thread topic, can we, and are we willing to put in place a coach, counseling, discipline process for dive bomb passes that the track officials are willing to enforce or to provide feedback to the class director on? Or in lieu of that, something that we can self police with a set of pre agreed upon standards that we would all agree to and agree to the coach, counsel and discipline process on without having to involve the stewards?

 

I don't know if any of this is feasible. But the goal is to try and correct bad driving before cars are wadded , not after. That part seems to be related to the topic. Thanks for any thoughts on the subject.


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#229
Jamz14

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I agree Brandon with the idea of "teachable moments". People need a chance to know what is good and what is bad and to correct. Depending on what race series you like to watch in the off time, a move can be viewed as brilliant or boneheaded. In V8 supercars, every dive bomb pass is a brilliant pass. In dirt racing every bad pass is a brilliant pass. Not so much in historic racing.


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#230
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SCCA does in fact have a pilot program in place for the Super Tour events, and I encourage anyone to utilize it if needed. I

Todd first off I am glad that the SCCA with the input from the SMAC has moved to introduce this program. I will do my part as i hope others do to continue to write letters and provide feedback on this issue.

 

For example, I would like to know what the results are at the end of the program and I hope drivers are given an opportunity to provide additional input.

 

specifically, this is a good first step but i also think more needs to be done to mentor drivers to teach them the rules of the road. You mentioned in your post that the Driver that you had contact with did not think he did anything wrong. I find that attitude most of the time.

 

The question is why is it that drivers do not know the right from wrong. Unless we address that issue up front, its going to be a learning process by the school of hard knocks so to speak. We need to do better at education IMO.


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#231
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The question is why is it that drivers do not know the right from wrong. Unless we address that issue up front, its going to be a learning process by the school of hard knocks so to speak. We need to do better at education IMO.

 

There may be need to institute a pre-race classroom session to talk about what is expected, what is overly aggressive, when to yield position or line and basically how to race each other respectfully. Everyone will hate the idea because they're not the problem driver, but if it's required you'll be there. You don't show up, you don't race. After sitting through a few classes it may start to sink in.


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#232
Ron Alan

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Though I realize this is a SCCA  thread...there is part of the way NASA does things that I think really works...which is how contact is reported. In NASA it is incumbent on the drivers to report...and if you dont you could suffer a bigger penalty than the one you may have gotten from the contact! 

 

Relying on contact to be called in by a corner worker or filing a protest as the only 2 options in SCCA lets a lot of people skate on little things that may someday turn into big things!

 

 

James...the problem with trying to "define" a dive bomb is there is no penalty if contact is avoided! 


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#233
FTodaro

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Though I realize this is a SCCA  thread...there is part of the way NASA does things that I think really works...which is how contact is reported. In NASA it is incumbent on the drivers to report...and if you dont you could suffer a bigger penalty than the one you may have gotten from the contact! 

 

Relying on contact to be called in by a corner worker or filing a protest as the only 2 options in SCCA lets a lot of people skate on little things that may someday turn into big things!

 

 

James...the problem with trying to "define" a dive bomb is there is no penalty if contact is avoided! 

I agree, a big part of the drivers comments and as i understand SMAC recommendations to the CRB last year, was to have a contact impound post race.

 

While haveing a contact steward in the Super tour may work well this year, we will not have the resources to do this at some majors and for sure all of the regional races. We likely need this educational component more at the Regional, and the contact impound my be the way to go for regional races.

 

That is why I think we need to revisit this program and the response for 2018.


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#234
Jamz14

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Ron, yes. That was my point. That we are not correcting bad behavior unless it results in contact. Wouldn't you like to change that? Isn't that the point of what Frank and Todd are working on?
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#235
DavidNJ

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In oval racing, which is usually on the same track each week, the driver is forced to miss the next 1,2,3,4, etc. events. Events and cars are expensive enough to run that a $250 fine is less than a couple of tires or a bent quarter panel...pocket change.

 

As in the dive bombing discussion, no set of rules or their enforcement is uniform. If the enforcement errs on the permissive side there tend to be more offenders. If the enforcement is rigorous it seems intrusive. 

Car counts are probably an important issue to most (all?) SCCA regions to crack their nut in running an event. Intrusive enforcement, especially if it bans drivers, would reduce car counts. 

 

No matter how reckless, rarely does a driver do a maneuver that they think will take them or another car out of a race. At the moment, all the maneuvers probably seemed like a brilliant move. 

 



#236
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No matter how reckless, rarely does a driver do a maneuver that they think will take them or another car out of a race. At the moment, all the maneuvers probably seemed like a brilliant move. 

Key word.


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#237
Danny Steyn

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Though I realize this is a SCCA  thread...there is part of the way NASA does things that I think really works...which is how contact is reported. In NASA it is incumbent on the drivers to report...and if you dont you could suffer a bigger penalty than the one you may have gotten from the contact! 

 

Ron, IMHO this is one area where NASA really gets it right. If you have contact, no matter how small, you report to impound after the session and you fill out paperwork about what happened. There are always at least two drivers involved in contact and if you are the one that does not show up and fill out the paperwork, severe penalties can be sanctioned.

 

So in reality what happens with this system is that ALL drivers involved show up to discuss the contact, and discuss it with a steward. This alone is a vital component of limiting future incidents. Too often in SCCA, unless the driver is called to impound or unless the other driver files paperwork or seeks him out for a discussion one on one, then all too often he goes home without ever discussing the incident with the other driver.

 

IMO this is something that I would really like to see introduced into the SCCA GCR


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#238
FTodaro

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Ron, IMHO this is one area where NASA really gets it right. If you have contact, no matter how small, you report to impound after the session and you fill out paperwork about what happened. There are always at least two drivers involved in contact and if you are the one that does not show up and fill out the paperwork, severe penalties can be sanctioned.

 

So in reality what happens with this system is that ALL drivers involved show up to discuss the contact, and discuss it with a steward. This alone is a vital component of limiting future incidents. Too often in SCCA, unless the driver is called to impound or unless the other driver files paperwork or seeks him out for a discussion one on one, then all too often he goes home without ever discussing the incident with the other driver.

 

IMO this is something that I would really like to see introduced into the SCCA GCR

Danny as far as I know this is what we asked for last year, by the SMAC and by letters,

 

Can we do a test program at least?


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#239
Bench Racer

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Frank, did the SCCA not start some sort of contact procedure on the Super Tour. I remember someone punting another car entering a corner and the car doing the punting was DQ'ed.


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#240
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We (NER, SCCA) adopted contact impound back in 2011. It was very successful and well received by the drivers.

I no longer race there and cant say for sure if they continued the program.

Any region can implement a program if they choose to.






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