284 replies to this topic

[FTodaro]

Going it without out SCCA should be plan B but even if they did not sign on, we are mostly concerned with controlling on track conduct and Peer review is a powerful tool.

 

I sent an email yesterday to Steward Dan Hodge with the concepts, i will report back.

 

We still need to develop the details.

 

This may end up with several ideas going out class wide in the form of a survey. I wonder if SCCA has specific lists by class?

[Amy M]

Below is an email I sent to the stewards of the NJMP Majors in 2 weeks.  They are interested in the idea of a contact impound and in helping to improve the situation.

 

From: Kathy Barnes (2) [mailto:kjbarnes22@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 11:57 AM
To: Gardner, Russell <russell.gardner@dlapiper.com>
Cc: Amy Mills <amy__mills@hotmail.com>; JDKing39@comcast.net; majorseast@scca.com; stevep@pencegroup.com; WDEther@comcast.net; klmcleod@myactv.net; Butch O'Connor <bfo@spsk.com>
Subject: Re: NJMP Majors - SM Class - On Track Compliance for contact

 

Thanks for forwarding this. Many on this distribution list may not be aware of the contact impound at NASA  events. Some regions have used it successfully. There is a lot of value in facing the person you just crashed into. A lot more if everyone can acknowledge that sometimes they are the problem. 

 

Steve and Russ - that may be a good conversation to have at NJMP. We can continue it when we meet at MidOhio

 

Kathy

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 12, 2016, at 11:42 AM, Gardner, Russell <russell.gardner@dlapiper.com> wrote:

Thanks for your attention to this, Amy.  I have forwarded to our Exec Steward for comment. 

 

Steve Pence is the Race Director for the NJ Majors.  He is responsible for adjusting driver behavior at this event.  You may be fully confident that I and my ACSs will fully support Steve’s decisions.

 

Russ Gardner

Chief Steward

New Jersey Majors

 

From: Amy Mills [mailto:amy__mills@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 9:52 AM
To: JDKing39@comcast.net; majorseast@scca.com; stevep@pencegroup.com; Gardner, Russell; WDEther@comcast.net; klmcleod@myactv.net
Subject: NJMP Majors - SM Class - On Track Compliance for contact

 

Hello Stewards,

 

I am writing to you regarding the significant discussion on Facebook and the MazdaRacers.com forum regarding excessive contact and damage to cars in the SM class, particularly at Majors events.  There is much discussion amongst the drivers about either forming a peer review group within the SM community to review all contact and dole out sanctions or,  to have one of the stewards act as an on track compliance officer to review ALL contact.  When I was at a recent NASA event, there was a special area at impound and anyone involved in any contact had to report there and discuss what happened.  There was almost no contact at that event.

 

We realize that you are incredibly busy and also volunteering your time.  However the current system does have a few flaws.  The time window to report incidents (30 minutes) is not long enough, especially if the incident is a big one and the driver is injured.  Also, many drivers feel that most incidents that are reported are deemed ‘racing incidents’ with no sanctions applied.

 

There may not be enough time to put anything new together for the next Majors race at NJMP in 2 weeks, but it would be great it we could do something.  Attendance is dipping for both Majors races in the NE and in the SM class in general.  Spec Miata is a fantastic class and I would hate to see it wither away.  It has some flaws but I am hopeful we can help to repair them.  I am happy to volunteer my time to assist in this project if needed.  At the very least, perhaps we can have a stern warning on how all contact will be reviewed or something.

 

Thank you for your time,

Amy Mills

[FTodaro]

Amy thanks for posting.

Its amazing how things change. One of the things i used to dislike about NASA was the contact impound, I thought it was silly in our class to have to go in and fill out a form every time my fender touched. Often when it was pretty innocent, i would stop at Pit in and get agreement with the other driver Not to report. (Rule breaker I know) but that was because i did not perceive a problem. Well my opinion has changed.

What makes the contact impound work is that if one driver goes to impound and the other drive blows it off they come find you and you are likely to get a DQ at that point.

Its sad to say it but we need to take this kind of action. This will most likely be a part of the proposal, this one change alone will aid in our objective, but we will need to do more.

[[[Mod note: I accidentally edited your post, rather than replying to it. I've put it back to its original form, as best I could. Sorry for the confusion.  -Tom]]]

[38bfast]

Amy thanks for posting.

 

Its amazing how things change. One of the things i used to dislike about NASA was the contact impound, I thought it was silly in our class to have to go in and fill out a form every time my fender touched. Often when it was pretty innocent, i would stop at Pit in and get agreement with the other driver Not to report. (Rule breaker I know) but that was because i did not perceive  a problem. Well my opinion has changed. 

 

What makes the contact impound work is that if one driver goes to impound and the other drive blows it off they come find you and you are likely to get a DQ at that point.

 

Its sad to say it but we need to take this kind of action. This will most likely be a part of the proposal, this one change alone will aid in our objective, but we will need to do more.

some people will have a reserved parking spot for the penalty box. 

[Bench Racer]

Earlier within this thread someone mentioned offender/offenders should be tracked. Is there any reason that a non SCCA official can not enter issue offender/offenders information in in their logbooks?   Logbook notes: Car #13 Tom G., car # 33 Dick B. Penalty if any. Check logbook for other offender notes and assign an accumulative number to each note . Accumulation tracking other than logbook if required. 

[38bfast]

Earlier within this thread someone mentioned offender/offenders should be tracked. Is there any reason that a non SCCA official can not enter issue offender/offenders information in in their logbooks?   Logbook notes: Car #13 Tom G., car # 33 Dick B. Penalty if any. Check logbook for other offender notes and assign an accumulative number to each note . Accumulation tracking other than logbook if required. 

 

I have been told that the technology already exists for ecetroinic log books. I would like to see a database created that would keep track of drivers and infractions. 

[Tom Hampton]

Its sad to say it but we need to take this kind of action. This will most likely be a part of the proposal, this one change alone will aid in our objective, but we will need to do more.

I don't see it as "sad". Its just human nature. We all do what we can---there are variations in "ethics", but eventually things stabilize to what's allowed. If there isn't any feedback mechanism, then it just continues to escalate.

We all like to think that Humans are better people than we are. But, anarchy doesn't lead to mass-altruism.

I had the opportunity to go to a local motorcycle track day at COTA last weekend. You wanna talk about unfettered craziness...I was crewing for my Dad, and just on the front stretch into T1 I saw every possible method of bad judgment exercised that I could imagine. They had plenty of "rules of conduct," but zero effective methods of enforcement. Sure they had control riders on course, but they are riding at the same pace as everyone else. And, they didn't even have a method to IDENTIFY riders. How many times did I hear "if you can point out the rider, I'll have a talk with him/her." Yeah sure. Whose gonna be able to ID a bike that goes by with a 30mph overtake without a number bib on the rider?

[Bench Racer]

I have been told that the technology already exists for ecetroinic log books. I would like to see a database created that would keep track of drivers and infractions. 

 

Don't disagree when electronic logbooks is released for use, BUT until released infractions noted in logbook can be looked by Tech official at the next race. Tech official to driver, infraction at previous race, hmmm.

 

 

Peter, thoughts on the current subject?

[Rob Burgoon]

Its amazing how things change. One of the things i used to dislike about NASA was the contact impound, I thought it was silly in our class to have to go in and fill out a form every time my fender touched. Often when it was pretty innocent, i would stop at Pit in and get agreement with the other driver Not to report. (Rule breaker I know) but that was because i did not perceive a problem. Well my opinion has changed.
 

 

NASA rules have a definition for contact and touching fenders generally doesn't include it.  No report needed.

[Chris Price]

Just FYI, NASA rules for definition of "contact" and "damage"

 

27.4 Definitions

 

27.4.1 Body Contact is defined as any part of a car making physical contact with another car significant enough to cause one (1) of the cars to sustain body damage or to be significantly knocked off of the racing line. Any driver involved in body contact must go directly to impound and fill out a contact report form.

 

27.4.2 Damage from an incident is limited to the following definition: Any sheet metal, fiberglass, or other body material, deformity significant enough to cause the NASA Officials to enforce the “50/50 rule,” thus requiring repairs. Damage to suspension or other mechanical components are not included in this definition. Damage to plastic or vinyl bumper covers, trim pieces, splitters, marker lights; and marks from tire rubs, are not considered damage for the purposes of this section.

[J. Mizer]

World Racing League started using an electronic log book this year.  Their yearly helmet sticker is a bar code and my understanding is that they can keep a database of drivers throughout the season.

[Tom Hampton]

NASA TX is keeping a manual spreadsheet that is posted to the regional forum of the driver naughty list. 

 

Its funny...OTHER people complained about ME getting a point for an incident at MSRC.  I was the target of a missed braking point.  I didn't really have any heart-burn over it.  But, the list is public and people DO go look. 

[Amy M]

Another response from my email to the NJMP Stewards:

From: Basil F. O'Connor [mailto:BFO@spsk.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 12:32 PM
To: Kathy Barnes (2) <kjbarnes22@gmail.com>; Gardner, Russell <russell.gardner@dlapiper.com>
Cc: Amy Mills <amy__mills@hotmail.com>; JDKing39@comcast.net; majorseast@scca.com; stevep@pencegroup.com; WDEther@comcast.net; klmcleod@myactv.net
Subject: RE: NJMP Majors - SM Class - On Track Compliance for contact

 

Kathy, Steve and Russ,

To put emphasis on what Amy reported, as of this morning, the SM race group at NJMP is our smallest race group at 11 entries.  I truly hope we will get more than that, but that is a shockingly small number. 

Butch

[Todd Green]

Its funny...OTHER people complained about ME getting a point for an incident at MSRC.  I was the target of a missed braking point.  I didn't really have any heart-burn over it.  But, the list is public and people DO go look. 

 

I used to be in their  camp.  Years ago a driver (from another region who only did one race with us) hit me squarely from behind, sent me off track, and I lost a position.  I got an automatic point for it.  But then I thought about it more and the idea is that if you get a point, it is no big deal.  It'll drop off your record soon enough.  However if you are constantly the "victim" then either you have some of the worse luck (possible) or you are putting yourself in the position to be the victim.  That or people hate you.  So I've kind of come around on liking the idea of always getting a point even if you are 100% innocent as much as it's pouring salt in the wound at the time.

 

I'd prefer anything that is public list the reasons why the points were assessed.  People won't think twice if they see "Contact from behind and lost position".

[FTodaro]

Folks, lots of conversations today getting points of view. Several good points raised over on Facebook, One of the things that we may need to do is send a message to SCCA that things are serious and that we really need there help in getting this fixed, We may need to be gathering signatures on a petition asking for change. 

 

Originally i thought that we might want to put together a proposal and then get people behind that with a petition. The problem with that is that i think the topic is a bit to complicated for me or just a few of us to think through every issue and do justice to it.

 

I suggest petition, because people do not take the time to write a letter to the CRB, if they would that would be the way but the Petition is a good substitute.

 

It may be helpful to get 500 signatures from racers who say that they are frustrated with the lack of enforcement and demand a change. Then get to work on what that looks like.

 

Still sorting through what is the best way to skin this cat. BTW there are several forces working on this I am just the blabber mouth.

[Steve Scheifler]

Be very careful what you ask for. Anywhere near 500 signatures will likely get action, but don't be surprised if someone then pushes to drive it with less influence (not to be confused with input) from us than you expect.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Be very careful what you ask for. Anywhere near 500 signatures will likely get action, but don't be surprised if someone then pushes to drive it with less influence (not to be confused with input) from us than you expect.

I completely agree right here carefully what we ask for I don't think be want a czar we just want accountability! That come from a peer group not a czar with and agenda... as Rob has said countless times alot of power hungry people out there. A committee makes that harder but not impossible. Personally I don't care who wins or loses as long as we are racing on an even platform... so far this year I have lost a car and put off on a straight away going for a pass that both would be sanctioned imo by a comitee or a czar but I could trust a committee to counteract each other's personal interest better... nothing is every going to be perfect but putting people off to keep them from passing, pounding people in corners, and piling up sheet metal at the start need to be curtailed how we do that is the devil in the details! We all have a significant $# invested here we have the beat class I. The world bar none but it's getting out of hand. If we don't do anything to stop it it will be stopped by drivers that are done tolerating the behavior! Is that what we want?

[Tom Scheifler]

Be very careful what you ask for. Anywhere near 500 signatures will likely get action, but don't be surprised if someone then pushes to drive it with less influence (not to be confused with input) from us than you expect.

Wise words of caution. But at this point, doing nothing is unacceptable. I'm willing to support something even if it turns out different than desired or is a complete failure.

[FTodaro]

All good points, just pointing out there are people smarting than me also working on the problem. Step one, understand there is a problem, Step two, come up with the options to fix it. Step 3, get a consensus on what is the best fix. Step four, implement the change. I think we are still at step one.

 

I agree getting a one man czar is not the way to go. in light of the the scope of this group. BTW i do not think this is just a Majors thing, I think it applies to Regional racing also. we might as well start from the beginning.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I agree getting a one man czar is not the way to go. in light of the the scope of this group. BTW i do not think this is just a Majors thing, I think it applies to Regional racing also. we might as well start from the beginning.

It's a class problem!