284 replies to this topic

[Jim Creighton]

Many of you who have been around since the first year of National racing for SM will recall that Toni was the SM operating steward for SEDiv. After a marathon of penalties at the first race at Sebring, there were almost none for the rest of the year. I believe the costs to have someone in each Division would be saved multi fold in unnecessary damage repairs. And like pro racing, monetary fines would certainly make someone think twice before making a low percentage move. Right now, the penalty is getting moved from 28th to 30th. Who cares. Make that a $100, $200 or $500 fine and then people care.

 

Something to consider/discuss.

[Steve Scheifler]

A czar as such wasn't my point, though certainly one concern. But other than the broad idea they could choose to dictate the entire structure of the process, infractions, points, penalties, etc. Not at all hard to imagine.

One thought about the mandatory point idea, I think it would be better to simply keep track of "no fault" incidents when they really are just a victim. That still achieves the goal of flagging someone who may put themselves at risk too often without the stigma of actual points. (Like it or not semantics/perception can be critical.)

[Bench Racer]

Right now, the penalty is getting moved from 28th to 30th. Who cares. Make that a $100, $200 or $500 fine and then people care.

 

Something to consider/discuss.

A few years ago I was on probation three event sanction numbers for passing under yellow after I gave the spot back.

 

Another avenue:

 

Include license probation for first time penalty for say six event sanction numbers that driver attends and license suspension if penalty again while on probation. The threat of license suspension will get everyone's attention right now. Money doesn't have nearly the  significance as license suspension.

[Richard Astacio]

 - I would say if any class with 20 plus car should have an automatic 2 laps for warm up. The first lap can be used for scrubbing tires and the second lap everyone has to be bunched up 2 x 2 half way around the track then maybe the last flag station before start finish can radio the flag station to waive the field off due to not being bunch together. 

 

 

- I also think no passing before the start finish would be a good rule, however if someone stalls or is no up to speed what will happen to the field?? Well if everyone goes around a car due to a bad start the stewards can decide if they need to assess drive thru penalty??

 

- As far as regional goes here for NER there is a mandatory contact impound at every event.

[Steve Scheifler]

Please don't take away more race time by requiring two warmup laps. People will still scrub as late as possible else they lose what little heat was generated on the first lap.

[davew]

When discussing this situation, remember that it has to work nationwide for it to be an SCCA mandate. That may mean 20 different czars to cover all the races. It may also send 20 cars to impound at big races with lots of detective work. Be carefull what you ask for.

 

SM is the most competitive form of racing in the country, maybe the world. Why would a bunch of adrenilian junkie, type A guys (and a few girls) want to race slow chick cars? Because we crave the competition. If we just wanted to drive fast, there are plenty of faster cars to race. We want to finish ahead of the other slow chick cars no matter what. We will take advantage of every loophole in the rules. Create our own loopholes when none exist. And drive through any opening between cars that we may fit through. As much as I hate to say it, we are looking for flying pink unicorns here. The competition level is so close that contact is going to happen. The answer is in our heads. We need to remember that we do this for fun. Sending a friendly competitor to the hospital is not fun for anyone. Wrecking some body else's car does not make your day any better. We all have to go to work on Monday morning. Learn to respect your fellow driver. Learn to give room to other cars. Remember that the prize money for 25th is the same as 24th. And the prize money for winning is not going to cover your travel expenses, much less the race expenses. Treat thy neighbor as you wish them to treat you.

 

Remember, Racing is Supposed to be FUN

[Steve Scheifler]

I'm glad you said it first Dave, but I have serious doubts about the true effectiveness any such effort can achieve. If you look at a lot of video there are countless times when but for an inch here, a flinch there, a harmless brush would have been a serious incident. In many of the really bad ones I've seen lately nobody did anything that terrible. We point to this or that, but frequently it's nothing different than others are doing but get away with it because as they do X there doesn't happen to be someone else doing Y. And I think that's the reason there are so many rulings of "racing incident" or at least equal fault. A lot of cars running close, a few will touch, and of those there is a chance that one will end badly.

I'm not saying the effort shouldn't go forward and try to reduce the frequency of blatant bonehead moves that result in damage or lost positions, but expecting to prevent stuff like what happened at the start last Saturday seems like wishful thinking for the reasons Dave mentioned. And unlike the pros, we don't all have good in-car cameras plus external race video, so quite often there just is not sufficient evidence. Assigning blame without that will really piss people off.

[Waterboy]

How does the buy in from the SCCA stewards happen that Todd's (or whoever at whatever race) decision/penalty recommendation is final and shall be followed?

What was put in place at Summit a few ago that stopped the crash fests? Collins or other from Summit.

John Nesbit -very level headed and fair. Cleaned the class up immensely.

[Bench Racer]

John Nesbit -very level headed and fair. Cleaned the class up immensely.

By being proactive or reactive.

 

I'm somewhat aware of John's Portable Drivers Advisor and other items published.

[Waterboy]

By being proactive or reactive.

I'm somewhat aware of John's Portable Drivers Advisor and other items published.

Both

[DrDomm]

After reading all that, I have to say something...

 

First, I don't think this should focus entirely on contact, but rather on driving style...which leads to contact.  At the WG Major I witnessed many dangerous moves.  People think they're Nico Rosberg..."it's my corner!".  If someone is on your outside, you shouldn't track all the way out.  If someone is on your inside, don't think the apex is your given right.  And blocking?!  I saw too many reactive moves.  Bumpdrafting...shouldn't this only be lined up, and not off to the side?  Hanging back on the start to get a run...aren't we supposed to "pack up"?  Someone mentioned the pace lap...I'm not a big tire scrubber, but I can't stand it when the guy behind me goes flying by me to warm up brakes.

 

Here's an idea...make it mandatory to show up on the grid outside of your car, without your helmet on, and shake the hand of the 2 drivers ahead of you and the 2 behind.  People should know who they might wreck.

 

(And lastly, I'm not perfect...still feel bad for 2 bonehead moves in 2014.)

[Sean - MiataCage]

I like a lot of what is being discussed, but it is my belief that we have a basic management issue here.  The rule book for the most part is pretty clear.  The problem is as Ralph has stated there is a pattern of Stewards not wanting to get involved and make the hard calls to hold people accountable.  We can re-write the rule book as much as we want, but if the stewarding community chooses not to enforce anything then the rules really don't matter.  

 

I don't believe there should be many "racing incidents" some yes, but in a lot of cases someone lost control of their vehicle or did something and caused the accident.  Just because someone did not mean to do it, doesn't mean that it still doesn't deserve to be properly ruled on and action taken.  I completely agree with Dave's statement above as well in that as close as these cars are time wise, we are going to have contact.  Incidental contact is expected, however punt to pass, going 4 off and coming back on track out of control, not lifting and using the car in front as a brake etc, etc, etc should not be tolerated and dealt with swiftly.

 

As far as the starts go which seems to be where a lot of the problems begin..... Why not simply take some of the compliance fee money and buy cameras for the starter stand and honestly for some of the bigger races, why don't we have a drone with cam to catch the starts from above.  I think the drone will absolutely show where it all started.  A great drone with 4K camera and auto-hover capabilities is like $1,500.00.  We are easily doing thousands of dollars of damage every weekend.  The drone does not need to be directly over the racing surface to capture the needed footage.

 

When was the last time anyone has seen an aborted start?   I can't remember the last time I have seen one.  Maybe it's better in other regions, but it seems like it never happens out west.  Don't start the race if things are not right.  My experience with the no passing before S/F doesn't work.  Guys getting runs on the cars in front won't lift or pull out of line, so they just slam into the car in front with an amazing amount of force.

 

I would like to see us engage the national office and whomever is responsible for the stewards.  I think we should express our concerns and see if we can get them on board with what we want and help be part of the solution.  Sounds like we have a good case study in the NE for how to do it.  If we shove our own steward for contact down their throat I'm not sure it will be received very well.  I am also concerned about the regional races as much or more than the Majors races.  We can't send our own steward to every race.  

 

As far as driver advisors to help the stewards, I love the concept, but I would not think using SM guys would be the right call here.  Maybe we could use SRF guys who know spec racing and since they are the next largest class will always have people at the track.  I don't think it's imperative to know the specific cars intimately.  A bone head move is a bone head move.  Imagine if Drago, Wheeler, Lamb, Fowler, Steyn, Rossini, Tiley, etc were tasked with being an advisor to an incident.  If your on the bad side of that ruling the rumors are going to fly and cause even more animosity in the class.  

 

All great dialogue.... Thanks Frank!

[Danica Davison]

Sean, I agree with everything except the waved off start.  I think it is too dangerous and shouldn't happen.  We had a waved off start in Sebring this year which caused 4 cars to wreck, with walls on both sides of the track and nowhere to go.  in 2014 there was a waved off start at Sebring as well which caused a wreck.  I think the best idea if the start looks bad is throw the green and by turn 3 display full course yellow and restart single file.  Then the drivers that caused the start to be waived off could get black flagged for a stop and go so they move to the back or just dealt with after (or both).  The only two wave off starts I have seen in recent history have caused wrecks.

[FTodaro]

Some encouraging news. My reading of the tee leaves is that many stewards agree with us that there has been to much relaxing of rule enforcement. That group has differing opinions too.

 

I think it would be helpful to our cause and the cause of the Stewards that our in our camp, if we did Either a letter write in to the CRB or a Petition.  

 

Which is it? what way do we want to go. we need numbers to send a message or its just a few of of bitching as usual.

[Jim Drago]

Some encouraging news. My reading of the tee leaves is that many stewards agree with us that there has been to much relaxing of rule enforcement. That group has differing opinions too.
 
I think it would be helpful to our cause and the cause of the Stewards that our in our camp, if we did Either a letter write in to the CRB or a Petition.  
 
Which is it? what way do we want to go. we need numbers to send a message or its just a few of of bitching as usual.

Unfortunately, the most lax stewards seem to be the ones in the Northern majors.. very nice people, but everything is not a racing incident.

[Rob Burgoon]

Sean, I agree with everything except the waved off start.  I think it is too dangerous and shouldn't happen.  We had a waved off start in Sebring this year which caused 4 cars to wreck, with walls on both sides of the track and nowhere to go.  in 2014 there was a waved off start at Sebring as well which caused a wreck.  I think the best idea if the start looks bad is throw the green and by turn 3 display full course yellow and restart single file.  Then the drivers that caused the start to be waived off could get black flagged for a stop and go so they move to the back or just dealt with after (or both).  The only two wave off starts I have seen in recent history have caused wrecks.

 

 

The only reason you should have cars wrecking on a waved off start is if the polesitter elected to explore the lack of legal start enforcement and to go full throttle before the green came out.  Blame your polesitter.

[38bfast]

Some encouraging news. My reading of the tee leaves is that many stewards agree with us that there has been to much relaxing of rule enforcement. That group has differing opinions too.

 

I think it would be helpful to our cause and the cause of the Stewards that our in our camp, if we did Either a letter write in to the CRB or a Petition.  

 

Which is it? what way do we want to go. we need numbers to send a message or its just a few of of bitching as usual.

Your petition last time seemed to work well. We can talk over beers this weekend. 

[Sean - MiataCage]

Unfortunately, the most lax stewards seem to be the ones in the Northern majors.. very nice people, but everything is not a racing incident.

 

At the Portland Majors 2 weeks back, we had zero SM entries, so I went out to spectate on a GT race.  The leader of the race spun under the 2nd lap of an FCY and a 200K+ Ferrari challenge car in P2 lap 2 of FCY nosed it into the spinning GT1 car under that 2nd lap of FCY and took out the radiators.   The FCY was caused due to a car pulling off track and couldn't get around the wall.  It didn't leave any fluid down, it just lost fire.  I was not paying attention to those two cars once I got to impound, but neither car was there and I did not see either of those drivers in the presence of impound, or the stewards shack.  It happened with about 5 laps left in the race.

 

The GT race had ZERO tech performed.  As matter of procedure Oregon region weighs ALL cars and is quite good at getting it done quickly.  I don't view that as Majors Tech if its standard operating procedure foe the track.   After the podium deal and all cars were released I went to the chief tech steward and expressed to them that I found it completely embarrassing that zero tech was done at a Majors event..... Remember we were sold on best of the best.... Best tracks, best drivers, best weather, etc, etc, etc.  He got a little bit offended and I asked him to then share with me what tech they did and I was told that their focus for the week was safety related tech and that they checked all cars on the first day for fire bottle pins.

 

I am all for safety and think we should always be focusing on safety, but that is not a Majors level tech item in my opinion.  It is my opinion that in this circumstance people were more worried about getting the day over with an on to social activities than to perform some kind of tech..... Hell, even fake it for all I care, but at least make it look like you are doing something.

 

As stated before I believe we have a very basic management issue not a rule book issue.  It is cultural and starts from the top.  I hope the right people at National can help turn this around quickly.

 

Sean

[Sean - MiataCage]

Your petition last time seemed to work well. We can talk over beers this weekend. 

 

I agree...... No matter how ofter we request letters to be sent in, we never see any significant numbers find their way to the CRB.  I think the petition makes more sense.  

[Jim Drago]

As most know, the June Sprints race was decided on the last lap by contact within site of the checkered flag. This occurred in front of anyone and everyone to see, it wasn't missed by anyone.  For the stewards not to call in both drivers in this situation is an absolute disgrace. (This has nothing to do with me, I wish I werent even involved in this incident as I am only posting to shine light on the situation we find ourselves in at the moment, I was not winning regardless of the stewards decsion even if they called it in and second or third didnt matter to me).  My point is if the stewards dont bother to bring us in at one of the biggest races of the year.. They arent bringing anyone in ever less a protest. Yes, I could have filed a protest but the other driver and I talked it out and were both fine after a discussion and moved on. My point is, this should have been a mandatory look by the stewards.