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#61
scott sanda

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Not all of it Rob,

As I understand it, this foolishness was directed by a previously mentioned national staff member, and over ruled at the track by Kevin and Steve.

#62
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The idea imo is s good one... The severity and way they tried to implement it, not so much.
This should have been over a calendar year and a solid plan laid out of wanting clean cars at Indy and also that if we didn't allow all the body damage to remain unfixed, perhaps it would be easier to police and people less likely to have contact ? Not saying it is correct, but maybe

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#63
ChrisA

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Perhaps, if during the impound it is determined by the stewarts and participants that evidence shows (statements, video) that one party at fault. Then that individual is required to pay for the damages (parts) of the other party, up to a certain dollar amount (say $500), plus receiving penalty points based on severity or recklessness of the maneuver OR in compliance with current CGR. Money going out to repair a competitors' car is sure way to tamp down certain bone-head behavior.


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#64
davew

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As the most VOCAL person at the track, I have a lot to say, but will keep it fairly short. After a full page report was written in Voyteks logbook ("Specificly" requireing 2 fenders, 2 doors, 2 1/4 panels and a front bumper be replaced) I blew my top. Then Michael (I don't know his last name) the CCC came to my paddock with the intention of writing up every dent and ding in every SM. After almost an hour of discussions with many officials, drivers, crew chiefs, car owners, etc. He returned to the SCCA compound. I then had a lengthy discussion with Eric Prill and Bruce Lindstrand (area 5 BoD member). I am told that overnight, there where lengthy and loud discussions amongst the officials. Following Saturdays Q2 session, another manditory drivers meeting was held and the order recinded and an apology was made. I did not attend the Saturday meeting as I was still a little upset and did not want to add gas to the fire. I have been told that the apology was heart felt and honest.

 

Over the course of the weekend I had the chance to have several nice talks with Michael from SCCA. I suggested he go to the track wall and watch the GT1 race, nothing like the feeling of 170mph a few feet away!!!! We shoke hands and the issue is put to bed. I feel confident that SCCA understands why we (I) got upset. And that they will come up with a workable solution.

 

If the damage is not bad enough to note in the logbook, than it is not bad enough to be a forced repair.

 

In my discussion with Eric Prill, I saw the car that started the entire situation. That car looked like a POS. It came from far away on an open trailer. Had not been washed in a long time. Had tape covering NASA and Toyo stickers. Old sticker glue with dirt embedded. The dents where minor, but the car was ugly. $30 in cleaning supplies, a case of beer and an afternoon of elbow grease and the car would have been fine. But the officials went over the top. I have no problem with requiring cars to be decent looking. But they need not be perfect.

 

Some people are willing to keep the care perfect, Jim is one of them. And others are more interested in being presentable (that's me). If you have tire swirls from a month ago or smeared stickers, clean up your car. Vinyl graphics are cheap, and contingency stickers are free. Ask Hoosier and Toyo for a couple sets of stickers and peel them off so the car matches the rules. Pressure wash the motor and vacuum the interior. Make the car presentable, not perfect, is how I look at it.

 

dave


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#65
Peter Olivola

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There is wisdom in the discretionary powers granted stewards in the GCR that is designed specifically to avoid a one size fits all solution to multi faceted issues.  What has been lacking in this discussion, and this thread is as good an example as any of the problem, is a unified voice within the SM community on how to deal with the problem of contact.  Every time SCCA attempts to take action the blow back is swift.

 

As a steward, I try to evaluate each situation on it's individual merits.  What I don't see is a willingness on the part of the SM competitor community to step up to the shared responsibility of safety and rules enforcement.  That means filing protests.  Yes, it's an adversarial situation, but without it, the ever decreasing quality and quantity of corner reports, due to the ever increasing shortage of corner workers, makes it increasingly difficult to asses responsibility on that basis alone.

 

From my perspective, the SM community wants SCCA to do something, BUT NOT THAT!  (whatever that happens to be at the moment.)

 

One would almost think the only solution being sought is to maintain the ability to blame SCCA, the stewards, etc., rather than actually agree on how to fix a problem.

Perhaps, if during the impound it is determined by the stewarts and participants that evidence shows (statements, video) that one party at fault. Then that individual is required to pay for the damages (parts) of the other party, up to a certain dollar amount (say $500), plus receiving penalty points based on severity or recklessness of the maneuver OR in compliance with current CGR. Money going out to repair a competitors' car is sure way to tamp down certain bone-head behavior.


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#66
OrangeCrush86

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Perhaps, if during the impound it is determined by the stewarts and participants that evidence shows (statements, video) that one party at fault. Then that individual is required to pay for the damages (parts) of the other party, up to a certain dollar amount (say $500), plus receiving penalty points based on severity or recklessness of the maneuver OR in compliance with current CGR. Money going out to repair a competitors' car is sure way to tamp down certain bone-head behavior.

 

The only feasible way to do something like this is to have a damage deposit paid when you enter the race that gets refunded if the weekend ends with no issues.

 

Requiring cars to have no visible body defects is hard for me to support (even though I hate body damage). People on a budget will struggle. The little contact I had on my second race pushed in my door and lower quarter panel. In my case I could do the body work myself and save some money, but some people would have to pay a body shop to repair this. I can't imagine paying a body shop to replace a quater panel, a door, then paint it, just to have it likely dinged again next weekend.

 

I personally just accept that damage can happen. It's part of door to door racing.


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#67
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SCCA had a decent idea that seemingly might could be productive if applied reasonably and with regularity, but it was poorly executed and it pissed off a lot of drivers etc... the problem was that their was little understanding  and delegation of the scope to be applied to the GCR rule they noted. The whole thing reminded me of bureaucracy......until the next day, where they stepped up and owned it all and gave an concise sincere explanation to what happened. Well done. 

 

I have seen,read, and heard a dozen great ideas of how to go about the issues of contact and poor driver actions etc.., so the comment by Mr Olivia about the SM community being unwilling or unreasonable about what the SCCA actually does is absurd. 

 

They (SCCA) could simply send out one of those chimpmail things to all of the SM drivers with 5 choices of what to do next derived from the SMAC or this forum and then institute the top 1-3 things for starters. 

 

Either way at least they attempted something and moved to try something, which is a good thing and shows thought, effort, and resolve. 

 

SS


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#68
Peter Olivola

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Absurd?  Hardly.  In fact, your comment validates mine.  You're still looking for SCCA to do it all.  That isn't how the Club Racing program is structured, a fact that you, and many others in the SM community seem to take great pains to ignore.  You have the power to do something about this now but no one wants to be the bad guy.

 

This isn't about what happened at the Sprints.  This is about the SM community not accepting its shared responsibility as defined in the GCR to resolve the problem.  This has become a closed loop problem.  When the club tries to do something, you complain.  When the club backs off, you complain.

 

Man up and write paper.

 

I have seen,read, and heard a dozen great ideas of how to go about the issues of contact and poor driver actions etc.., so the comment by Mr Olivia about the SM community being unwilling or unreasonable about what the SCCA actually does is absurd.

 

They (SCCA) could simply send out one of those chimpmail things to all of the SM drivers with 5 choices of what to do next derived from the SMAC or this forum and then institute the top 1-3 things for starters. 

 


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#69
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As a steward, I try to evaluate each situation on it's individual merits.  What I don't see is a willingness on the part of the SM competitor community to step up to the shared responsibility of safety and rules enforcement.  That means filing protests.  Yes, it's an adversarial situation, but without it, the ever decreasing quality and quantity of corner reports, due to the ever increasing shortage of corner workers, makes it increasingly difficult to asses responsibility on that basis alone.

 

 

From my perspective, the SM community wants SCCA to do something, BUT NOT THAT!  (whatever that happens to be at the moment.)

 

I believe you have captured the gist of the SCCA sentiment. However, i will remind you that part of the uproar centered on the fact that the outcome of many of he protests were "concluded as racing incidents"

 

So you are right it is an adversarial process that many of the stewards do not want to get involved in  (be the bad guy) either. 


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#70
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a case of beer and an afternoon

 

I'm not sure how much cleaning would get done. :optimist: 


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#71
LarryKing

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Man up and write paper.

 

the outcome of many of he protests were "concluded as racing incidents"

 

What Frank said. I have protested a competitor's lack of racing room a handful of times. Only once was a penalty assessed, otherwise it was ruled a racing incident.

 

My impression is that at regionals the volunteer workers sometime seem more intent on getting to the beer party on time - I can't blame them, they have donated their time and already put in a long day. After a race I'm ready to go relax too, not deal with a lengthy process that many times doesn't have any effect.


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#72
Peter Olivola

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How would anything you've proposed change that?  If there is no CSA/RFA/Protest, there will be no paper trail.  If the evidence doesn't support assessing responsibility as a result of a protest, what will happen that can't happen now?  Now, you can talk to your fellow competitors.  Now, you can file paper to try to get a ruling that creates a paper trail.  Contact impound, and I'm not opposed to the idea, doesn't change any of that or alter the possible outcomes of official actions.  That would leave two things; log book entries and competitor to competitor conversation both of which can be done now.

 

I believe you have captured the gist of the SCCA sentiment. However, i will remind you that part of the uproar centered on the fact that the outcome of many of he protests were "concluded as racing incidents"

 

So you are right it is an adversarial process that many of the stewards do not want to get involved in  (be the bad guy) either. 


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#73
FTodaro

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How would anything you've proposed change that?  If there is no CSA/RFA/Protest, there will be no paper trail.  If the evidence doesn't support assessing responsibility as a result of a protest, what will happen that can't happen now?  Now, you can talk to your fellow competitors.  Now, you can file paper to try to get a ruling that creates a paper trail.  Contact impound, and I'm not opposed to the idea, doesn't change any of that or alter the possible outcomes of official actions.  That would leave two things; log book entries and competitor to competitor conversation both of which can be done now.

Peter my opinion, is that step one of this process is educational not punitive. Many drivers make poor decisions that result in contact, they go back to their paddock spot and learn nothing unless the drivers talk. Sometimes it happens sometimes not, or there is no agreement as to cause.

 

The paddock impound forces the drivers to do to that and the SCCA to weigh in if needed to educate the driver or drivers about what went wrong.

 

That is the primary thing. In Rare cases paper or official action may be needed. But your comments point out the problem, because the current system is so adversarial people avoid it all together and no education is passed on, no corrective criticism is given, and mistakes are retreaded over and over.


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#74
Peter Olivola

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What is preventing you from talking to you fellow competitors now?

 

Peter my opinion, is that step one of this process is educational not punitive. Many drivers make poor decisions that result in contact, they go back to their paddock spot and learn nothing unless the drivers talk. Sometimes it happens sometimes not, or there is no agreement as to cause.

 

The paddock impound forces the drivers to do to that and the SCCA to weigh in if needed to educate the driver or drivers about what went wrong.

 

That is the primary thing. In Rare cases paper or official action may be needed. But your comments point out the problem, because the current system is so adversarial people avoid it all together and no education is passed on, no corrective criticism is given, and mistakes are retreaded over and over.



#75
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What is preventing you from talking to you fellow competitors now?

Nothing and many do but not all, however, there is often disagreement about what occurred.

 

imagine if both people are patiently waiting for the other guy to come up and apologize and it never happens.

 

I also think that policing contact, sends a message that its going to be taken seriously, and not tolerated.


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#76
Peter Olivola

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It's been my experience that every time stewards try to police contact there is blow back, hence why it's important for competitors to participate in the enforcement process through protest.  There just isn't agreement within the SM competitor community about what constitutes actionable contact.

 

Nothing and many do but not all, however, there is often disagreement about what occurred.

 

imagine if both people are patiently waiting for the other guy to come up and apologize and it never happens.

 

I also think that policing contact, sends a message that its going to be taken seriously, and not tolerated.



#77
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What Do You Think

 

GCR
 

2. #21994 (Tyler Brown) Add an Impound Requirement for On Track Contact
 

The Club Racing Board has received quite a few letters over the past years expressing concern over the many incidents of car-to-car contact at our Club Racing events. The topic is also a common item on the many racing forums. The Club Racing Board is seeking comments on requiring mandatory impounding of any cars involved in a car-to-car contact. Should the driver and car be required to report to impound immediately after the session is over? If so, Stewards will investigate the contact and, if necessary, take action against the offending party. This would also be an opportunity for the parties involved in the contact to discuss it in a neutral environment.

 

Why are some folks attempting to rewrite the contact rules?

 

Step one, please respond to the CRB request. With no responses the CRB may say, the Spec Miata class really doesn't care. My city's take with no responses to an issue is, the constituents really don't care. 

 

For my 2 cents worth, impounding the entire Spec Miata class is not part of the solution because most tracks don't have a large enough impound area. A classic example would be this past weekend at Road America, where is there room to impound 60 Spec Miata's.

 

 

 

 


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#78
davew

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To my eyes and ears,the biggest problem is lack of respect. Too many of the officials look down on the Miatas as a bunch of crashers. Many others are more worried about dinner plans than actually "Officiating" a race. And the drivers don't respect the officials either. And the fiasco at June Sprints illustrates why. It is not practical to throw HUGE philosphical changes at the biggest race of the year. With no warning. Remember, this is club racing. We all have budgets and time constraints to work within.

 

Too many of the Stewards have not raced in decades. Some never raced. And very few have ever raced in a class like SM. And the SM community needs to be more involved in cleaning up its own act. There are drivers who are respected for their knowledge, experience and common sense. Find these drivers and have a peer review group. Take pix of the cars involved, get videos and compare notes.

 

Impound all is not the answer. Requiring perfect cars is not the answer. Respecting each other, and the officials is the answer.


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#79
Steve Scheifler

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It's been my experience that every time stewards try to police contact there is blow back, hence why it's important for competitors to participate in the enforcement process through protest. There just isn't agreement within the SM competitor community about what constitutes actionable contact.


I'll second everything Frank has been saying and add push-back to your continued efforts to lay it off on the competitors. Maybe you need to hang out and observe firsthand what we go through when trying to file a protest for on-track incidents, because your experience must be very diffetent.

As for meeting directly with the other driver, way easier said than done. Sometimes it works, often it doesn't. There are no personality requirements to race and there all all types out there with different ways to deal with things. It takes two making the effort for the direct approach to work, assuming you can even find the other guy. And if you fail, then what? Too late to file paper. Some official structure around it can set certain expectations and make a huge difference.

There are many cases where we have followed procedures to the letter only to wonder later why we bothered, so stop making it sound like the class is just complaining and expecting the club to do it all. That's total BS and actually jyet another poke in the eye from someone on the outside not interested in getting the facts before criticizing.
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#80
Rob Burgoon

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In my discussion with Eric Prill, I saw the car that started the entire situation. That car looked like a POS. It came from far away on an open trailer. Had not been washed in a long time. Had tape covering NASA and Toyo stickers. 

 

 

Screw that.  If anyone pitches a fit over decals taped over, they can go piss up a rope.

 

SCCA has rules on the books about keeping your engine bay clean.  If there was ever a reason to give up on the club, that's it right there, regardless of whether they are enforced.  Just being on the books is enough.


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