485 replies to this topic

[FTodaro]

Can I put an edit to my post above then. I was under the impression, that part of the issue as someone had posted that there are different density types of bump stops out there that could be used to change performance of the bump stop. I had assumed that they look just like what we now use.  If that is not true, or not a concern then I could care less if the same performing part is provided after market. But if the directive is buy them from supplier (5x) that is all we need to know if there is no way to get an advantage.

[suck fumes]

There are three different densities all of which can be cut to look legal. Only way to know is sticking a durometer into them.

[FTodaro]

There are three different densities all of which can be cut to look legal. Only way to know is sticking a durometer into them.

The having a rule to buy the from one supplier and buy the right one will not cover the issue, in tech. So what do we do? 

[Danica Davison]

Fat Cat is no longer involved, they never were able to keep up with demand and raised the prices significantly from when we started. That is why others started making/selling the kits. they are exact copies of the kit apparently except for the smoothness of the cut on the stops.   5x is now distributing them for fat cat and/or bought the rights, not sure which. But fat cat is not involved any longer.

 

Correct. John Adamczyk actually supplies the kits to mazda

[5X Racing]

Lots of great points and questions here, and I'm gonna try to answer as many as I can as I can honestly call myself the second-most knowledgeable person regarding the Fat Cat kits (behind Shaikh, the creator of them of course). My goal here is to help people understand the Fat Cat kits and how they are made/why they are unique, as there seems to be a lot of mystery to them. They are quite complex when boiled down, and a sort of "white paper" is probably needed on them to provide an accurate explanation, which I am glad to do as I like writing those sort of things. A little history first:

 

We were approached by Fat Cat about two-years ago to take over their manufacturing and distribution of both the SM kit and their other bump stops kits (there's a variety of kits using a bunch of different types of bump stops and such. Not relevant). Fat Cat was looking to pivot to other things and I think the production and inventory demands of the bump stops/SM kits were slowing them down on those other plans, so we gladly accepted this partnership and quickly worked on building up the inventory to make sure that availability was not a problem again. (side note: as a retailer of Fat Cat SM kits previously, we too could not get orders filled and had to pull the product line from our store because of it. I understand 105% why alternative kits were made during this time, people had cars to build and orders to fulfill, and "what had to be done" was done. We even looked into making our own kit during this time, but found the process WAY too cumbersome, the parts were not off-the-shelf, and overall just not worth the effort) 

 

@ Todd:

"We also don't know that the Fatcat kits are using the right bump stop. There is NO part number on the bump stops, as Fatcat is just cutting and repackaging a product from another company (same product and same company that Advanced is using). If Advanced had used the same cutting method, there would be NO way to tell the difference....see the dilemma?"

-I see what you mean, and it is a difficult scenario, but perhaps it can be better understood with some explanation and unclouding the mystery behind the bump stops? That's where I'd like to help

• FCM kits (ie: Fat Cat Motorsports) start with a Speedthane 78mm bump stop and slice it into three sections to make up the three MCU foam pieces of the kit, which are: 36mm bump stop (goes over the shock shaft), lower bushing (goes in between the red washer and shock hat), and upper bushing (goes in between the top washer and shock hat). It would seem this is fairly basic, but it's not.
• The original Speedthane bump stops come in three different densities from the manufacturer: red (soft), white (medium), and blue (hard). Each of these colors are of a different density, which translates into different "spring rates" for each color. I won't get too into the details, but let's just say the red's are 100in/lb, white 200in/lb, and blue's 300in/lb for simplicity of the conversation. The FCM kits use the blue density, so they start with the blue 78mm Speedthane bump stop and slice it into three sections to create the foam pieces of the kits. You can see where using a different density might alter handling and that's where an obvious cheat on the kits would be exploited. All someone would have to do is use a different color 78mm when they made their alternate kit. 
• There are part numbers on the full-form 78mm Speedthane bump stops stamped into them on the top ring (part that makes up the upper bushing on the FCM kits). It is not legible on the FCM kits because it is on part of the bump stop that is cut, so you are correct, there are no usable references on the foam pieces. This is definitely a problem, but can be solved by using weight to tell the difference between the three as there will be a weight variance due to their densities (spring rate). The stiffer they are, the heavier - however - that isn't even necessary as a bump stop which has been cut is clearly noticeable by the quality of the cut. The FCM foam pieces look like they've been laser cut they are so clean. To me, cutting your own bump stops - even if they're the same blue 78mm Speedthanes - would be considered to be a modification of the original part, just the same as slotting a control arm. They don't have part numbers either to compare to a brand new OEM control arm, but you can surely see the difference if you look closely. 
• If Advanced had used the same cutting method, there would be NO way to tell the difference....see the dilemma?"  Yes, I do. However, I can tell you they're not. The FCM foam pieces are precision manufactured from Speedthane proprietorially for Fat Cat. They are NOT off-the-shelf 78mm Speedthane bump stops that are cut by us to the approximate thicknesses (I'd go crazy if I had to do this by hand, it's a cluster-F!), they are produced and delivered as individual pieces that are pre-cut to the exact thicknesses originally spec'd by Fat Cat. There are only two companies in the world that may purchase these, us and Fat Cat. It may be that Advanced is using the correct blue density bump stop, but it is entirely possible that the foam pieces can be reproduced using the other densities as well if that were the motive (although it looks as if AA uses the blue stops from the pictures of the kit, so I'm sure that wasn't their motive). We do sell the individual FCM pieces (36mm stop, upper and lower bushings) separately as spares, and if someone wanted to put together their own kit, theoretically they could buy them in that fashion and do so. We have not sold any to Advanced, so I can say with a fair amount of certainty that they are not the exact pieces that the FCM kits use and there will be noticeable differences in heights being they're hand cut.

Regarding the compressed heights of the bump stops, this is a dynamic issue, as the older they get, the more mis-shapened they might become and impossible to compare to a new bump stops static height spec. This is the nature of a MCU foam bump stop, and not something that can be controlled unless you use an entirely different material, one that is WAY more solid! Even rubber would do the same thing. If this is the game that is being played, then it could be easily done by using the old Mazdaspeed rubber bump stops designed for the NA shock hats, using them on the NB shock hats until they're all sorts of separated and mangled, and finding your ideal shock travel range that way. In the grand scheme of things though, the density of the MCU is what you want to look for as it will be the factor that makes a difference. Agreed. No simple answer, especially when you have the option in the rule to still use the old Mazdaspeed bump stops (entirely different subject, and one that I have done a lot of thinking about as well). 

 

"How about: The rule is adequate as written - use the FCM kit from Mazda."

Yes, 100% agreed. On the FCM kit at least. I do think we need to clarify the rest of the rule regarding bump stops and shock mounts however, it's about as clear as mud and worse off, referencing incorrect OEM part numbers. Tech is so lucky that there wasn't a car at the Runoffs using "the unmodified Mazdaspeed bump stop (p/n 0000-04-5993AW) in conjunction with the 1999-up stock upper mount assembly consisting of the upper mount (p/n: NC10-28-340C), the upper mount bushing (p/n: NC10- 28-776) and the upper mount washer (p/n: NC10-28-774), and shock body spacer over the shock shaft (p/n 1234-56- 789-AW).". I have some ideas and will be addressing the SMAC about this separately.

 

@ Jim:

"The bump stop kits from Wheeler and Miatacage will test identically as they are all cut from the same part? Perhaps have 5x come up with a special brand and brand all the new kits from here forward?"

• If they're using the blue Speedthane bump stops and have the EXACT same height as the FCM kits, than yes they might, however, I don't think there would be a good working tolerance range with this process for determining a tech process though as MCU foam is not as precise as measuring a metal part, such as an engine part. Measuring the differences between three different types of the same blue density 36mm bump stops might not be the right road to take, but rather check for the possible use of another density other than the blue (hard), as I feel that would alter handling on a measurable scale, whereas the differences between the heights of the 36mm bump stop and corresponding spring rates they produce would be negligible and wouldn't translate into real-world differences on track. 
• I'd be on-board with helping to figure this all out being we manufacture the FCM kits and have the ability to articulate if need be on the parts. However, is it really necessary? In my opinion, the only issue with the FCM kit is the fact that there was a non-rules sped'd alternative kit produced that people started using because they couldn't get the FCM kits at the time. This problem became a snowball that was never stopped when the FCM kits were readily available again. It's quite easy to tell the difference between the AA kit and the FCM kit, just look at the components used. The AA kit doesn't use an anodized aluminum red washer and Bilstein spacer like the FCM kit does, nor are the spring isolators stamped with "FCM" like the authentic kits. One peek inside the coilover, andthrough the spring isolator and even the most untrained eye can see a red washer, or not-red washer. This is essentially a "go/no-go gauge". Put the kit components on a bench and compare it with an authentic one and you'll see the rest of the differences. 
• IF, there is a fundamental problem with the functionality of the FCM kits as they are now, this is something that can be improved though. We can surely look into adjusting the kit as recommended by the CRB, but would first consider input from around the community valuable in terms of what type of improvements might be needed. From the way I see it, the hardware of the kits are fine, and the only things that should be clarified to help this situation would be to produce the foam pieces with part numbers on them, which would require molded bump stops, which would probably move us away from the type of bump stop currently being used. Is this possible for us to do? Yes. If this route is chosen, any redesigns should be entertained to make any improvements if needed before a mold is produced. All of the components of the FCM kits are proprietary and custom produced to the specs as originally designed by Fat Cat. We can make addendum's to these parts obviously and evolve the kits if needed for the better of the class and more clarification in the rules, but this is a decision far beyond me and as the manufacturer - I'd be willing to work with the person making this decision.

I hope this helped make the bump stops and Fat Cat shock mount kits in general a bit more transparent. This is really technical when you distill it, and I'd be happy to answer any more questions (I actually need to review the posts again though, as I started working on this around 7am!)

[5X Racing]

Correct. John Adamczyk actually supplies the kits to mazda

 

Yes, I do through my company. We were approached by Fat Cat directly with this proposal when the availability issues were heavy a few years ago. Being a company focused more towards manufacturing than plain retail, we gladly accepted. 

 

And to further elaborate on Jim's quote:

 

"Fat Cat is no longer involved, they never were able to keep up with demand and raised the prices significantly from when we started. That is why others started making/selling the kits. they are exact copies of the kit apparently except for the smoothness of the cut on the stops.   5x is now distributing them for fat cat and/or bought the rights, not sure which. But fat cat is not involved any longer."

 

True: Fat Cat turned over all production and distribution to us in the partnership, and it was approved by Mazda first. We do not own Fat Cat, but rather control manufacturing of the kits components, maintain and keep all of the inventory, put the kits together, and sell/supply the kits to the dealers while maintaining the Fat Cat name.

The prices of the kits were in place when we resumed distribution, and I'd consider them somewhat controlled by Mazda at this point. I don't want to step on toes with that as it was packaged to us that way. The kits are costly to produce for what they are as everything is proprietary and nothing is off-the-shelf, like available from McMaster Carr or similar hardware suppliers. 

This is the way it is because of the SM rules. We didn't change anything with the kits, and use the same manufacturers Fat Cat did to ensure continuity going forward with the existing kits. This was made VERY clear to us during the process! There surely are ways to reduce the prices of them if we used our own manufacturing sources, however, we didn't want any confusion and doing so might have caused a slight difference in parts, if not dimensionally, perhaps visually, which is clearly bad for enforcing rules in the tech shed. Keeping everything EXACTLY the same was priority #1. 

 

False: The AA kit is actually not an exact copy of the FCM kit, and differs in three ways that any non-subject matter expert could see. I don't need to point them out or dwell, just do a comparison of the components if you're interested:

 

Advanced Kit

FCM Kit

[tylerbrown]

 

• IF, there is a fundamental problem with the functionality of the FCM kits as they are now, this is something that can be improved though. We can surely look into adjusting the kit as recommended by the CRB, but would first consider input from around the community valuable in terms of what type of improvements might be needed. From the way I see it, the hardware of the kits are fine, and the only things that should be clarified to help this situation would be to produce the foam pieces with part numbers on them, which would require molded bump stops, which would probably move us away from the type of bump stop currently being used. Is this possible for us to do? Yes. If this route is chosen, any redesigns should be entertained to make any improvements if needed before a mold is produced. All of the components of the FCM kits are proprietary and custom produced to the specs as originally designed by Fat Cat. We can make addendum's to these parts obviously and evolve the kits if needed for the better of the class and more clarification in the rules, but this is a decision far beyond me and as the manufacturer - I'd be willing to work with the person making this decision.

 

 

+1 This. If I have to buy new Fat Cats then so be it. 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

No bone to pick here either way, but I know there are lots of them out there that are non fatcat, I think smac needs to give at the least a date of 1/1/18 before they will be an issue, hate to see people have heartburn about throwing away a perfectly good $300 part to buy another one! I remember back in 14 or whenever the heads were all noncompliant the ARRC guys said they would not tech or take any protests on the str... It would be nice to see this done again for the rear if the season and let people get their cars sorted out before 2018 season...

I ellected not to go the the ARRC that year regardless as I did not want to beat anyone that did not have the str smoothed and them feel slighted. But it was a nice gesture by the ATL Region none the less

[tylerbrown]

No bone to pick here either way, but I know there are lots of them out there that are non fatcat, I think smac needs to give at the least a date of 1/1/18 before they will be an issue, hate to see people have heartburn about throwing away a perfectly good $300 part to buy another one! I remember back in 14 or whenever the heads were all noncompliant the ARRC guys said they would not tech or take any protests on the str... It would be nice to see this done again for the rear if the season and let people get their cars sorted out before 2018 season...

I ellected not to go the the ARRC that year regardless as I did not want to beat anyone that did not have the str smoothed and them feel slighted. But it was a nice gesture by the ATL Region none the less

 

Its only one and a half tires!!

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Its only one and a half tires!!

Says the kid whose wallet belongs to his daddy!!! Lol

[tylerbrown]

Says the kid whose wallet belongs to his daddy!!! Lol

 

Hey now, we're on the same page for this!

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Lol you musta sold him a bill of goods! Why even go to engineering school if you that good of a salesman, look at Danny he's a salesman lots of income lots if time on his hand and lots of silvery tounged talking... Lolololol

[tylerbrown]

Lol you musta sold him a bill of goods! Why even go to engineering school if you that good of a salesman, look at Danny he's a salesman lots of income lots if time on his hand and lots of silvery tounged talking... Lolololol

 

I just make sure he only has to show up and drive!

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I just make sure he only has to show up and drive!

I just make sure he only has to show up and drive!

Hope that works into your 40's!!!

[tylerbrown]

Hope that works into your 40's!!!

 

Hopefully he (and you) will be running vintage by then.... 

[Bench Racer]

Hopefully he (and you) will be running vintage by then.... 

Young man, your going to force daddy (Down Town Tommy Brown) to vintage long before your 40.

[Bench Racer]

John Adamczyk, would it to your knowledge be correct in saying the bump stops procured from 5X, MiataCage and Advanced Auto Sports are all the same material and even with different cut processes they are equal in set up and handling?

 

Second question, if a Portable Durometer is used on new bump stops and bump stops used for 3 years (6 weekends per year) is it likely the test results will be the same or different (different being enough to allow difference in set up/handling)?

[Jboyd1]

So interesting video here...

Let's rehash what we see.....

1. YOU get into my left rear at turn 2 causing some damage to suspension parts

2. YOU bounce off me into Juan Marchand which puts Juan hard into my left front damaging tie rod, control arm, wheel, and tire

3. YOU continue into Marchand and spin him completely into oncoming traffic

fast forward to the back straight...I realize my car has too much damage to continue.

4. I drop to the inside to go inside the curb in 12 and continue along the grass  driver's right to pit lane

5. Said parts damaged due to the contact fail and the car continues straight over the curb at 12...causing me to "superman" the curb and collect you

My race over. YOU continue on for the race. Marchand's race over.

After the checker YOU protest ME for unsafe driving..... and I get 4 race weekend probation.

My mistake was I should have pulled over after I realized the car was too damaged. I decided not to stop at 12 due to the fact that a caution there would eliminate a potential passing zone.

For that I will take my medicine and serve my 4 weekends.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is a great story John, I wished you would have stayed at the track so we could have talked about it then.      My view is a little different of course.  Turn 1 you go about 20 yards to the right of the white line and come back in on turn 2.   You will see my car stays on its line , but you move to the left once you see the contact in front of you, causing the initial contact between our cars.   If that hit caused you to have suspension damage, then it was almost ready to fail before hand.   Also , If I slam on the brakes once the green car comes across the nose, then both he and I get ran over from behind. 

 

At what point did you realize you had suspension damage for real ? I wasn't driving your car, but it looks like you are trying to dive bomb the 69 car and are not even hitting your brakes until the last second.  If your car was wounded, why would you drive in so hard to that corner, especially under a car that's already mid track?  I would imagine you hit me going about 50-60 miles an hour.  I was able to continue despite having to hold the steering wheel 40 degrees to the left to go straight.  I also had a cut tire from the right fender that I did not know about until I got in the pits.  If my car was able to continue after getting hit as hard as you hit me , then there is more to the story of your suspension breaking.    I would say there is a high likely hood of everyone's cars breaking , if we had jumped the curbs in turn 1 or 12. 

 

Make sure you watch the video on the computer so you can actually see the 360 video, and not just the fish eye....

[davew]

I will agree with everything John just said.

 

I originally purchased direct from Fat Cat. He charged my card for 30 sets and delivered 12. Several weeks later a few more. And several weeks later the remainder. I then ordered 20 sets. Again my card was run for the entire order, yet he did not full fill the order for a couple months in 3 more shipments. It was very obvious what he was doing, so I did it myself.

 

Every set of bump stops that I have ever made, have been with the blue stripe Speedthane bumpers. I have never used the other colors as I understand that would be non-compliant and thus a cheat.

 

Outside of the anodizing, my parts are the same. Except for the intake manifold and exhaust system, painting is allowed. The nut and washers are made by a small aerospace company around the corner. If he can make jet engine parts, he can make Miata parts.

 

I do not include the "Bilstein spacer" as the vast majority of my sales are on pre assembled suspension kits.

 

I do include the set screw that locks the assembly. Without it, the special nut can (and often does) back out. At least 2 people came to me this weekend with backed out nuts. LOL

 

Mine are cut on a band saw on a v-block fixture. Not that big a deal to cut. Within realistic tolerances for what these parts do.

 

I know there are others making their own bump stops. I will not speak for them, but competition is usually better.

 

Making this into a "prove where you bought them" issue would be great for John's company. He would need 1000 sets tomorrow. Frankly, it would be bad for me, I would have to buy 50 sets from John tomorrow. It would also be bad for the class in my opinion. I have no issue with specing a design. We did this with the round spacer from the original version of the NB hat, that I designed and made public. I also wanted to do this for the subframe gussetts, but SCCA decided to spec the manufacturer. Specing a manufacturer on a non critical, non performance part is bad for SM as a group, in the long run.

 

Had the bump stops not been installed upside down (no performance difference) the issue would never have come up.

 

I have no issues with John or his company. In fact I value the benefits of healthy and fair competition. I disagree with single supplier on non critical, non performance and non techable items.

 

My 2 cents

Dave

[Johnny D]

 

I do include the set screw that locks the assembly. Without it, the special nut can (and often does) back out. At least 2 people came to me this weekend with backed out nuts. LOL

My 2 cents

Dave

 

What's the thread ?

M10 x 1.25 ?

 

J~