Jump to content

Photo

June 2018 Prelims

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
58 replies to this topic

#41
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 5,794 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2000
  • Car Number:2

^^^I was not at the table when they did this...but I was told they tried to stick the 1.8 in there...the head was going to fail based on this until they realized their mistake. No 1.6 tool I was aware of.

Going to have to call bullshit on this... 

The 1.6 would be ultra compliant using 1.8 tools :)


  • RWP80000 likes this

East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#42
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 233 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

Name one class that has a more invasive tech than SM. You would have even more DQs in other classes if they had the same level of tech, imo.

 

Maybe true, but if there isn't any room to say "I'm not going to DQ someone over an oil filter", then we are destined for BS grudge protests.


____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#43
Team Nitro

Team Nitro

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 39 posts
  • Location:Nevada City,Ca.
  • Region:Nor Cal
  • Car Year:2003
  • Car Number:83

Jim I was there and the 1.8 tool was used and compliant when the pilot was in the guide correctly. At that point they realized they haven't done a 1.6 for 5 years and they don't have the wright tools.


Team Nitro- Greg & Nitro Nick Sommers

Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#44
Ron Alan

Ron Alan

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,446 posts
  • Location:Northern CA
  • Car Year:1995

Going to have to call bullshit on this... 

The 1.6 would be ultra compliant using 1.8 tools :)

Again, wasn't there at that moment and I misunderstood what Greg said to me...I just knew there was an issue with a measuring devise and they moved on to something else. Thanks for the correction Greg and you win Jim :) 


  • Jim Drago likes this

Ron

RAmotorsports

2014 NASA SM Western States Champion(Car owner)

2015 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2016 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2017 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2017 NASA NORCAL SM Series Director

2018 NASA NORCAL SM Series Director

Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#45
chris haldeman

chris haldeman

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 782 posts
  • Location:Mckinney
  • Region:texas
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:73
To my knowledge they have never seen a 1.6 head. Also to my knowledge there is no compliance tools for 1.6 heads
  • Derrick Ambrose likes this
X-factorracing.com
3 podium finishes
2 2013 NASA nats
1 2013 Scca runoffs
Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver BFG Supertour Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - Majors Winner - Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#46
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 5,794 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2000
  • Car Number:2

Jim I was there and the 1.8 tool was used and compliant when the pilot was in the guide correctly. At that point they realized they haven't done a 1.6 for 5 years and they don't have the wright tools.

As Chris said, there are no 1.6 tools. The pilots are the same(1.6 and 1.8), the tool heads are not.  No 1.6 head could be deemed compliant( or non compliant) with any 1.8 tools as they are not remotely the right tools and way too big for the 1.6 head. There is just zero relevance.  Not sure why tech staff would even insert the pilots as they are well aware that they don't have those tools? But I don't doubt what you said above, maybe they just continued on with their normal procedure until the realized that they didn't have the tool heads for the 1.6? I have no idea. 
 
 Even if the head were a 99, the compliance tools would not be the decision maker on the short turn radius. They have a feeler gauge like tool with 1mm notch, one with 1.5 mm notch and one with 2 mm notch. They lay these tools over the deburr area. If they see any marks / scratches are outside 1.5 mm or the area or if the area is manipulated, they will DQ the head.  I have not seen the head, no idea what was or wasn't done.  I have no opinion on this head, I have not seen it, just clarifying what I know of the process and the tools for those who have not have the pleasure of this exam :)
 
After 14 deal at Runoffs, I had one head DQ for STR in 1/15, we believed it to be compliant.
There were literally a few file scratches over 1.5 mm on three holes, there was no tolerance given. Not sure what they saw here on your head, but I know from experience, they give no tolerance and the decision is not something you can appeal. 
 

Is anyone here aware of a 1.6 head being looked at in tech for compliance items(podium car)since the STR rule was put into the GCR in 2015?

Yes, they have a 2014 compliant machined 1.6  head in Topeka. 

.making the need to "de-burr" a sharp edge a moot point(this is MY observation).

This is simply not accurate

East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#47
Ron Alan

Ron Alan

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,446 posts
  • Location:Northern CA
  • Car Year:1995

 
 Even if the head were a 99, the compliance tools would not be the decision maker on the short turn radius. They have a feeler gauge like tool with 1mm notch, one with 1.5 mm notch and one with 2 mm notch. They lay these tools over the deburr area. If they see any marks / scratches are outside 1.5 mm or the area or if the area is manipulated, they will DQ the head.  I have not seen the head, no idea what was or wasn't done.  I have no opinion on this head, I have not seen it, just clarifying what I know of the process and the tools for those who have not have the pleasure of this exam :)
 
After 14 deal at Runoffs, I had one head DQ for STR in 1/15, we believed it to be compliant.
There were literally a few file scratches over 1.5 mm on three holes, there was no tolerance given. Not sure what they saw here on your head, but I know from experience, they give no tolerance and the decision is not something you can appeal. 
 

This is simply not accurate

Jim's description in the first paragraph is accurate. In fact, I was given the opportunity to use one of these gauges just as tech officials did with a mirror and the gauge. I was told to hold the gauge at the bottom of the ferrous metal(seat)on the STR. When I did this the markings on the aluminum ended right at the bottom of the tool...on 3 of the 4 intake holes...one was a little less. I looked a Bauer and said "are we splitting hairs here?" He went back to look again and I walked away. Come to find out later he had handed me the 2mm tool by accident instead of the 1.5mm tool. So I accepted the fact that with the smaller tool it would have been too much. During this time I was helping another competitor remove his transmission so other than this one 5 minute break at the request of Greg I didn't watch much else. After the fact I began thinking to myself why I was measuring from the ferrous metal? Only mention of the ferrous metal in the rules is the 12mm measurement. The STR 1.5mm deburr is at the end of the plunge/transition to the stock casting. I believe what I was measuring was the OEM plunge past the ferrous metal. That smooth cut aluminum transition to cast aluminum was obvious...and it was roughly 2mm below the ferrous metal.

 

Your 2nd point Jim about scratches/marks below this transition was something that was also mentioned..but in passing, not as "THE" reason for a DQ. But there were some marks which I can see being caused by using a cleaning tool with a metal shaft like a flexible wire brush? This would suck if the main reason but I would get it.

 

Maybe I'm doing a lousy job of describing what I feel is the difference in what the ports in a 1.6 look like in relation to a 1.8...but can we agree they are different? Can we agree the angle at which the metal/port falls away from the end of the plunge is different?

 

Like you did with your motors Jim, I feel this motor was compliant. Until the competitor is given a definitive measurable explanation that makes sense I'm helping them exhaust options. Like you found there may be no tolerance and no appeal but there is an effort to have the tech findings confirmed.  


Ron

RAmotorsports

2014 NASA SM Western States Champion(Car owner)

2015 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2016 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2017 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2017 NASA NORCAL SM Series Director

2018 NASA NORCAL SM Series Director

Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#48
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,034 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

“The intersection of the machined
surface of the plunge cut to the port casting shall not be altered, except that the area under
the short turn radius may be de-burred, with the de-burring not to exceed 1.5 mm in width.”

 

No plus tolerance.


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#49
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 5,794 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2000
  • Car Number:2

 

Your 2nd point Jim about scratches/marks below this transition was something that was also mentioned..but in passing, not as "THE" reason for a DQ. But there were some marks which I can see being caused by using a cleaning tool with a metal shaft like a flexible wire brush? This would suck if the main reason but I would get it.

 

 

 

Like you did with your motors Jim, I feel this motor was compliant. Until the competitor is given a definitive measurable explanation that makes sense I'm helping them exhaust options. Like you found there may be no tolerance and no appeal but there is an effort to have the tech findings confirmed.  

 

Just to be clear... I was talking entirely about a cylinder head we did for a customer when referring to the scratches. I "thought" it was compliant but when looking at the tools etc.. It was clear there were some scratches. It was ridiculously nit picky, but after 14, they were not giving any room.  I understood and moved on, still sucked though :( 

 

The 1.6 and 1.8 heads are a little different, but the general rule is the same.  


East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#50
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 233 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

So I was looking at my car and it has non-Mazda fenders. Probably replaced after damage because the car has been repainted at least once. Grounds for a DQ?


____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#51
Martinracing98

Martinracing98

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 66 posts

So I was looking at my car and it has non-Mazda fenders. Probably replaced after damage because the car has been repainted at least once. Grounds for a DQ?

I would think it probably is. I see nothing in the rules that I read as allowing after market fenders. I also think if a person gets DQ'd for a fender, that was not the real reason. The DQ'd person ticked someone off, and that person took the opportunity to get the driver DQ'd.



#52
BNaumann

BNaumann

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 222 posts
  • Region:DET
  • Car Year:2000
  • Car Number:67

I would think it probably is. I see nothing in the rules that I read as allowing after market fenders. I also think if a person gets DQ'd for a fender, that was not the real reason. The DQ'd person ticked someone off, and that person took the opportunity to get the driver DQ'd.


We call that a "California protest" now.
  • Danica Davison likes this

#53
Ron Alan

Ron Alan

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,446 posts
  • Location:Northern CA
  • Car Year:1995

We call that a "California protest" now.

Haha...when I wish I could hang out in Texas more  :)  Good one!


Ron

RAmotorsports

2014 NASA SM Western States Champion(Car owner)

2015 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2016 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2017 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2017 NASA NORCAL SM Series Director

2018 NASA NORCAL SM Series Director

Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#54
Dave D.

Dave D.

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 108 posts
  • Location:New Jersey
  • Region:NASA Northeast
  • Car Year:2002
  • Car Number:14

Didn't Jim make a "Weenie Protest" emoji???



#55
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 233 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

I would think it probably is. I see nothing in the rules that I read as allowing after market fenders. I also think if a person gets DQ'd for a fender, that was not the real reason. The DQ'd person ticked someone off, and that person took the opportunity to get the driver DQ'd.

 

Fenders from Mazda = $370 a piece. Non-Mazda fenders from rock auto = $80 a piece.

 

I'm looking forward to my eventual DQ now that I posted on here.  :pessimist:


  • Derrick Ambrose and Danica Davison like this

____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#56
Caveman-kwebb99

Caveman-kwebb99

    Veteran Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,970 posts
  • Location:World Wide
  • Region:Great lakes
  • Car Year:2000
  • Car Number:99
Task 1: look for the name Orange juice on every race wnteant list of every race I do...

Task 2: write paper so that nobody gets cheated out of the rightful finishing position!

Task 3: skip task 1 and 2 and get another beer bahhahahahahaha
  • Danica Davison likes this

K. Webb
Powered by East Street Racing (Best engines in Spec Miata)

Driver coach, Spec Miata Prep shop, Spec Miata Setup

2016 Hard Charger award passing 12 cars runoffs 2016 Mid Ohio

2016 P3 RUNOFFS OVER 40 DIVISION LOL!

2015 First consolation prize Northern Conference Majors Title Pageant
2015 Winner Circus Cat Majors Road America

2015 Winner BlackHawk Majors crash fest

My Signature is still not as long as Danny boy's
 

 

 

Donor - Made PayPal donation Majors Winner - Chatterbox - Blah blah blah... Blah blah blah Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#57
BNaumann

BNaumann

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 222 posts
  • Region:DET
  • Car Year:2000
  • Car Number:67
I figure if I protest everyone without a OEM dipstick handle I might end up top 20 at the next Super Tour event. Friendly warning.
  • Bench Racer, Derrick Ambrose and Danica Davison like this

#58
38bfast

38bfast

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 927 posts
  • Location:Sterling Heights, MI
  • Region:OVR
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:38

I figure if I protest everyone without a OEM dipstick handle I might end up top 20 at the next Super Tour event. Friendly warning.


Broken dipstick handle lowers the CG. Clearly a performance advantage.
  • Danica Davison likes this
Ralph Provitz
V2 Motorsports

#59
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 233 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

I figure if I protest everyone without a OEM dipstick handle I might end up top 20 at the next Super Tour event. Friendly warning.

 

I'll be protesting all non OEM paint jobs.


  • Derrick Ambrose and Danica Davison like this

____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users