103 replies to this topic

[Ron Alan]

24 carbotech= 18 g loc...like blowing a feather

Apparently Danny is a 3 legged pedal user...you go mate!

[OrangeCrush86]

I don't think I'm giving any state secrets away, but according to this post, @Danny was running 24/12:  https://nasaspeed.ne...s-biggest-fans/.

 

I drive an overdog.

[Tom Sager]

After racing this weekend at Blackhawk and paying more attention to how the braking feels I can understand the comments on the XP10/8 combo. It's a lot of pedal pressure to get the threshold and offers quite a bit of modulation range that probably isn't needed (unless the track is wet). I used up these pads and have a 12/10 combo on the way for the next race. Should be fun to try a different compound.

 

Once up to speed I don't think that 12/10 combo will be optimal.  Blackhawk absolutely eats brakes.  Cobalts work very well there.

[chris haldeman]

I have been told by wheeler that Blackhawk is insanity on brakes. Personally I have never been there

[OrangeCrush86]

Once up to speed I don't think that 12/10 combo will be optimal.  Blackhawk absolutely eats brakes.  Cobalts work very well there.

 

Brainerd is my home track, but I will always be experimenting (until I run out of money anyways).

[SaulSpeedwell]

Always glad when you chime in, and even more so when the topic is brakes, Mr. Saul Bendix Speedwell. But after panning most of the discussion thus far it would be nice to get more specific. Most of us are adults and can take it, and the rest can play elsewhere if yhey don’t like it.

Camber certainly plays a role in this and if one person is running significantly different relative F/R camber than another person then your point is particularly valid. But I’m not sure it in any way alters my fundamental recommendation, which is to START with what Madza designed in terms of hardware, and use the same compound on both ends. Then as you say, see what the car “wants” but be aware that there may be a hardware, setup or driver induced problem rather than a F/R compound issue. But perhaps the point I most wanted to make is to not assume that locking up rears under level straight-line braking necessarily means you need a less aggressive rear pad, particularly if you are already using a “softer” one back there.

Do you take issue with any of that?

I wasn't trying to be coy or a smartass, I am quite serious when I say just give any given car and driver and track what the laptimer is clearly asking for.  If the RR is locking up every lap, then you are not using the other 3 brakes to their full "400 HP" potential.  If the rears are locking up before the fronts, you are leaving time on the table.  So DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.  Adjust cross, or throw in an AutoZone pad, or flip a pad backwards, or put one stock pad in.  If your right arm offends thee, cut it off - that might be the only thing I remember from Sunday school.

 

I'm not joking at all when I say there is no $4 trophy for being closest to 50.0% cross while displaying the most Internet-approved brake pad combination.  The lap timer is God, so just make "God" happy for you, your car, and your track.  One of my best laptimes at Mid Ohio was with 52.3% cross and an outboard RR pad flipped backwards (metal-to-metal). The outboard RR pad flipped metal-to-metal was also how the Grattan and IRP track records were set back in the ancient times.  Ideally, I would have had a Carbotech AX6 or maybe a Hawk Black or HP+, but in absence of those being available at the given moment, I flipped the outboard pad metal-to-metal and improved the lap time and raceable-ness.

[davew]

Does it make a difference if I turn a PFC pad backwards or a Carbotech?

[Steve Scheifler]

Absolutely. The Carbotech pad material will soon delaminate from the plate. Personally, I just cut down a chunk of plywood and shove it in there, but of course it has to be oak-faced marine plywood.

[OrangeCrush86]

Friction coefficient of said plywood?

[Tom Sager]

I wasn't trying to be coy or a smartass,

 

Since when do you have to try?

[Steve Scheifler]

Friction coefficient of said plywood?

I’ll supply it just as soon as G-loc et al supply theirs.

[Sphinx]

Absolutely. The Carbotech pad material will soon delaminate from the plate. Personally, I just cut down a chunk of plywood and shove it in there, but of course it has to be oak-faced marine plywood.

 

 

Sadly, I can't tell whether you guys are serious (in which case, I'm in disbelief) or kidding around.

 

My next question was whether anyone has messed around with different inboard and outboard FRONT pads to see what would happen?  Would you get the "average of the two"?  Or a bad vibration?  #curious

[Ron Alan]

Sadly, I can't tell whether you guys are serious (in which case, I'm in disbelief) or kidding around.

 

 

This is sad!

[Tom Hampton]

My next question was whether anyone has messed around with different inboard and outboard FRONT pads to see what would happen? Would you get the "average of the two"? Or a bad vibration? #curious

OK, now I agree with Ron. You need to stop thinking about things and go drive your car!

[Tom Hampton]

Friction coefficient of said plywood?

6

[LarryKing]

I use slices of Spam for rr pads. After a Sprint race it's seared perfect for a tasty snack.

[SaulSpeedwell]

Since when do you have to try?

 
The listener/editor half of the equation determines at least 50% of the outcome of the conversational transaction, but expends orders of magnitude less effort than the speaker/author in determining whether he/she/ze/zhe/Spot/Stripe are satisfied with what they hear and/or edit in hindsight.     

[Sphinx]

OK, now I agree with Ron. You need to stop thinking about things and go drive your car!

 

 

Ha!   Exactly.

[SaulSpeedwell]

Sadly, I can't tell whether you guys are serious (in which case, I'm in disbelief) or kidding around.

 

My next question was whether anyone has messed around with different inboard and outboard FRONT pads to see what would happen?  Would you get the "average of the two"?  Or a bad vibration?  #curious

 

Ignore the Internet experts and try it for yourself.  It won't be dramatic, so says this Internet expert, but it might also trim 0.2 seconds and keep you from locking wheels when trying to divebomb your former best friend.  But - I would say always do your "experimenting" on the outboard side of the caliper, since we have single piston calipers with the pistons/seals on the inboard side.

 

Here's how I think about it - if I'm running 52% cross and the brake zone is a 5 degree sidehill … why would I ever want symmetrical braking?  I don't.  I want brakes that match my (dynamic) % cross in the best passing zone, really.  Beware of your earliest locking brake - it is not your friend.  Dial it down so the other 3 brakes can do their full job.  

[Brandon]

I run a more aggressive combo. It STOPS. But it LOCKS UP when its even slightly wet and pads have to be changed. Lots of time to be made up in the braking zones. 

 

The key take-away from this statement is that Danny is modifying his PADs and not his brake pedal FORCE when presented with "lubricated" conditions.

Same rate of pedal application, same relative amount of piston force against the pad, yet the pad doesn't decel the car as much with the less grippy compound.

 

Did I get that right (or at least close)?