Jump to content

Photo

Pro's and Con's of 200 TW Tires in SM

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
64 replies to this topic

#21
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,508 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

http://www.hoosierdi...ear-rating.html

 

The thread wear rating is meaningless to compare different manufactures as post by  gerglmuff2 stated and as Hoosier info states.

 

I looked at the rating for SM6 and SM7 and they are equal. Looked at Toyo RA1 and it's traction rating is different.

 

SM6/SM7 Thread Wear 040, Traction C, Temperature A.

        RA1  Thread Wear 040, Traction A, Temperature A 

 

OrangeCrush86, you should be able to check info at Hoosier and Toyo to find your info. 


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#22
Ron Alan

Ron Alan

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,732 posts
  • Location:Northern CA
  • Car Year:1995

Check the exact Toyo your talking about, likely construction/sidewalls are different and durometer test it and the Hoosier S7 and the answer will bit you in the a$$. Point being at the get-go Spec Miata didn't have the parts failure issues. 

Though I'm a fan of the consistency of the RR...I dont feel the SM7 is drastically any different than the RR in terms of grip. By no means am I seeing any more parts failures in SCCA vs NASA on the different tires. I'm of the opinion if in fact there are more parts failures as a percentage than 10 years ago...only a very small portion of that would be due to tires. I'd be way more inclined to believe there is a larger percentage of drivers with the ability to drive at the limit(abuse all parts), inferior aftermarket parts being used, and people not understanding what wheel  contact(with anything!)does to our components that tend to fail most!


Ron

RAmotorsports

 

Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#23
Ron Alan

Ron Alan

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,732 posts
  • Location:Northern CA
  • Car Year:1995

How much slower is a prime Toyo vs a sticker Hoosier? 2%? 4%?

 

 

Sonoma

 

Same driver on fresh tires and same track conditions...maybe .4-.8 sec. 1:55.2 vs 1:55.7.  .1%?


Ron

RAmotorsports

 

Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#24
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 424 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

Same driver at Mid-Ohio pro course. April NASA (Toyo) race best time 1:42.8; July SCCA (Ho-Hos) Mid-Ohio race best time 1:42.5. Yea, I get ambient temps are a factor.

 

Again, if everyone is on the same tire of what possible relevance is "fastest tire?"

 

Fastest tire wasn't my point. Toyo is offering almost the same amount of grip (according to lap times) and is nearly the same size. To me this says that SM 7 tire width and stickiness is not the primary factor for mechanical failures AND SM7 lack of durability is most probably due to compound.

 

I'm with Ron that bearing wear etc is more likely attributed to the cars being older, run harder, and lower quality replacement parts.

 

A Raybestos wheel bearing I bought a month ago even has a new, thinner, cheaper casting. I was meaning to post pictures of it because the hub face nearly 30% thinner and not suitable for racing at all (so watch out if you recently ordered a Raybestos wheel bearing).

 

Anyways, to stay on topic, I don't mind the SM7. SM7 or Toyo and I would be fine. I don't want to run a 200tw street tire. I would however be extremely interested in junking the Hoosier H2O for anything; even plywood circles (and the plywood could double for rear brake pads).


____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#25
Martinracing98

Martinracing98

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 143 posts

You realize that the SRF tire is the same tire we are on now? the Sm7?  I have had several conversations as to the whys and hows.. But SRF is getting 15 plus raceable cycles on these tires and it is not BS..  It is same compound and construction. Different size on one axle and less weight with proper suspension.  "my belief" is that we have no suspension, we are using the tire as suspension, over heating and over working it. 

I have heard that rumor that it was the same. It makes sense the ideal for a 2400 pound car is not the same that is ideal for a 1600 pound car. When they picked it though I liked the process. They set some goals and tested multiple tires from multiple vendors. I think top two criteria was a tire that was forgiving for average driver and long life without golden lap. It seems like they did a good job, but maybe they just got lucky


  • Jim Drago likes this

#26
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,508 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

I'm with Ron that bearing wear etc is more likely attributed to the cars being older, run harder, and lower quality replacement parts.

And what would your 2 cents worth be on the Toyo RA1's we ran on at the get-go?

 

Dave Wheeler, Jim Drago at the get-go on Toyo RA1's did your companies change near as many front hubs as you change since the Hoosier's came to be the tire?  


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#27
Sphinx

Sphinx

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 651 posts
  • Location:Atlanta
  • Region:ATL

For those who regularly read grassroots motorsports, you know that every season there is an autox 200 wear tire of the week.  Let's not go down that rabbit hole unless it is a spec tire.



#28
LarryKing

LarryKing

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,659 posts
"Toyo is offering almost the same amount of grip (according to lap times) and is nearly the same size."

Many people, good people, are saying the Hoosier has much more grip, just really amazing grip. The Toyos, no grip, Sad. Bigly grip Hoosiers are slower on the straights than the Toyos. Could be fake news.
  • Jason J Ball and Brandon like this
2017 - SMSE SEDiv ECR Champion
Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#29
Ron Alan

Ron Alan

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,732 posts
  • Location:Northern CA
  • Car Year:1995

And what would your 2 cents worth be on the Toyo RA1's we ran on at the get-go?

 

Dave Wheeler, Jim Drago at the get-go on Toyo RA1's did your companies change near as many front hubs as you change since the Hoosier's came to be the tire?  

You know the answer to this Dave...Mr. Wheeler has posted dozens of times what he thinks! Dont discount that there are other potential factors at play here. That was my only point for those who think Hoosiers are the sole culprit of hub/bearing failures. G forces are G forces arent they? Approximately same lap times create same forces? And to WV point...has anyone ever looked at top speed given similar conditions between the 2 tires?


Ron

RAmotorsports

 

Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#30
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 424 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

"Toyo is offering almost the same amount of grip (according to lap times) and is nearly the same size."

Many people, good people, are saying the Hoosier has much more grip, just really amazing grip. The Toyos, no grip, Sad. Bigly grip Hoosiers are slower on the straights than the Toyos. Could be fake news.

 

10/10 Will read again.


____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#31
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,508 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

And what would your 2 cents worth be on the Toyo RA1's we ran on at the get-go?  Ron, this was for OrangeCrush86

 

Dave Wheeler, Jim Drago at the get-go on Toyo RA1's did your companies change near as many front hubs as you change since the Hoosier's came to be the tire? Ron this was for Wheeler/Drago 

 

Ron, this rag has been chewed on many times by many. For the economics of the class let's pick a low hanging piece of fruit, soft tires. We all understand there are many issues which cause hub failure. Side question for you about another Spec Miata failure. Why do Spec Miata's have so many differential housing failures? I've never heard of a Miata production class car having a differential failure. Please pick the most likely low hanging piece of fruit for that failure.


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#32
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,816 posts

Ron, this rag has been chewed on many times by many. For the economics of the class let's pick a low hanging piece of fruit, soft tires. We all understand there are many issues which cause hub failure. Side question for you about another Spec Miata failure. Why do Spec Miata's have so many differential housing failures? I've never heard of a Miata production class car having a differential failure. Please pick the most likely low hanging piece of fruit for that failure.


Is that a serious question or an example of wasting time debating the obvious? There are things we might learn from those cars but that’s not one of them.
Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record.

#33
Ron Alan

Ron Alan

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,732 posts
  • Location:Northern CA
  • Car Year:1995

My opinion is simply that...an opinion. Common sense says sticky tires will put more stress on parts. Common sense also says they are not the limiting factor for parts failures.

 

200 tread wear tires would seam like a huge leap backwards...Toyo has proven itself and there for the picking! If Hoosier has something new in the works...that's good! Hopefully they announce by September!


Ron

RAmotorsports

 

Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#34
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 6,566 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2005
  • Car Number:2

Ron, this rag has been chewed on many times by many. For the economics of the class let's pick a low hanging piece of fruit, soft tires. We all understand there are many issues which cause hub failure. Side question for you about another Spec Miata failure. Why do Spec Miata's have so many differential housing failures? I've never heard of a Miata production class car having a differential failure. Please pick the most likely low hanging piece of fruit for that failure.

Ill take that... production cars have expensive and easily breakable bumpers.. Not nearly as much bump drafting..  And when they do it is a bump. many in SM thing it is collision drafting. 


  • Bench Racer likes this

East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#35
FTodaro

FTodaro

    Veteran Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,084 posts
  • Location:Columbus Ohio
  • Region:Great Lakes
  • Car Year:2001
  • Car Number:35

The cynic in me thinks that no matter what tire we run even if there is no appreciable advantage to stickers those who can afford it and think it’s an advantage will be putting stickers on and selling their take offs, or they will be shaving the tire to reduce its weight, again if it’s an advantage or not. Let’s face it, it’s who we are.

While finding a tire that has more useable HC is a positive, I do not think it’s going to cure the disease of spending money.

Having a gentlemen’s agreement in place while not enforceable may be as productive, because trying to propose a rule that the SCCA has to enforce is asking for more headaches .


  • lillyweld likes this

Frank
TnT Racing
SCCA Ohio Valley Region
 

Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Donor - Made PayPal donation

#36
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,816 posts

Ill take that... production cars have expensive and easily breakable bumpers.. Not nearly as much bump drafting.. And when they do it is a bump. many in SM thing it is collision drafting.


You mean of course on that rare occasion when even two prod cars run close enough to consider a bump draft, and even rarer case when it would make any sense at all even if they knew the bumpers would line up.
Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record.

#37
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 6,566 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2005
  • Car Number:2

You mean of course on that rare occasion when even two prod cars run close enough to consider a bump draft, and even rarer case when it would make any sense at all even if they knew the bumpers would line up.

and there is that as well :)


East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#38
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,508 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

You mean of course on that rare occasion when even two prod cars run close enough to consider a bump draft, and even rarer case when it would make any sense at all even if they knew the bumpers would line up.

Being your in the your devil's advocate mode (stuff doesn't make sense), please provide the rule by GCR number which allows a Spec Miata to bump the rear of another Spec Miata. Please don't come across with an answer that bumping is un-enforceable. Jim, you may help Steve. :bigsquaregrin:


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#39
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,816 posts
When all else fails ask an even more ridiculous question? Must be taking lessons from our fearless leaders. 🙄
  • Jim Drago likes this
Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record.

#40
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,508 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

When all else fails ask an even more ridiculous question? Must be taking lessons from our fearless leaders.

WHAT, you feeling like your in a corner with no answer therefore a silly response. Hopefully you feel better after this ^ post. 


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users