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#21
38bfast

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If you have to leave the racing surface to avoid contact and he was at or past your "A" pillar before entering the zone that's no different than if there were contact.  If he's behind it, it's only slightly less clear and would require other evidence.  Did you actually avoid contact or did you only think you needed to go off to avoid contact but he left sufficient room?  

 

This guideline addresses the clamor being raised to do something more specific about contact.  I see it as adding clarity to my ability to make a fault determination.  Otherwise, I don't see any change to 6.11.1.

again conflict of rules.

 

6.11.1 must leave racing room. So if a guy overtaking sticks in 1 foot of overlap the car being passed MUST leave room. 

 

New guideline. If the overtaking car only has 1 foot in, He has no right to be there and must back out. The car being overtaken is not obligated to leave any room and can cut down to the apex because the car trying for the pass did not make it to his A-pillar, NOT leaving room. 

 

So one rule says you need to leave room the guideline says you don't. Direct conflict. Sounds like we are creating a ruleset for a game of chicken. 

 

like Jim says what you can do by the rules might not be what you should do. But if we are clarifying a rule wound we want it to reflect what SHOULD be done. 


Ralph Provitz
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#22
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Real issue which occurred at Blackhawk Farm several years ago. Car across track just before T4, RED flag at T4, I stopped, another Spec Miata sideways stopped behind me, a short time later first and second place in race took 4 wheels in the grass from the left hander after T3A and they came back on track between T4 &T5 & parked in T5. No one said $hit to these two drivers. Please don't anyone tell me the corner workers in T3A, T4 or T5 didn't view the issue.

 

Shall I go on with more actual issues as others also could where one or more drivers were not talked to about an issue. 

 

Old rule, new rule, if someone doesn't have a backbone, nothing's going to change.

 

How about a rule which eliminates the race officials constantly using the words, Racing Incident. For my 2 cents, if race officials shall I say laid the law down we wouldn't be having this discussion.


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#23
38bfast

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Racing Incident my ass!

 

Thats what usually comes to mind. 


Ralph Provitz
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#24
Peter Olivola

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again conflict of rules.

 

6.11.1 must leave racing room. So if a guy overtaking sticks in 1 foot of overlap the car being passed MUST leave room. 

 

New guideline. If the overtaking car only has 1 foot in, He has no right to be there and must back out. The car being overtaken is not obligated to leave any room and can cut down to the apex because the car trying for the pass did not make it to his A-pillar, NOT leaving room. 

 

So one rule says you need to leave room the guideline says you don't. Direct conflict. Sounds like we are creating a ruleset for a game of chicken. 

 

like Jim says what you can do by the rules might not be what you should do. But if we are clarifying a rule wound we want it to reflect what SHOULD be done. 

 

It's a guideline, not a rule.  It's intended to provide GUIDANCE to drivers on overtaking responsibilities and to stewards to aid in evaluating responsibility for contact.  If you know someone is alongside but not up to your "A" pillar you have to make a decision. 

 

If I'm crossing Lake Michigan from Chicago to St. Joe in the middle of the night during an offshore race and an ore boat puts his spotlight on me and only me I may technically have the right of way, but...

 

You're never going to make rules or guidelines that completely eliminate judgement.



#25
38bfast

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I understand it is a guideline and not a rule. And we are held to the letter of the rule. 

 

So when Joe Smow. Blast in the side of a car that he had 2 foot overlap on and he gets a DQ per the GUIDLINE "he was in the Bermuda Triangle", He can appeal because the actual RULE says he should have been left racing room, 6.11.1. and he was racing by the rules? 

 

Or does the car that lost the side of the car get the DQ per 6.11.1 and is told the guideline is not a rule and thus doesn't play. It's just in the GCR for ??????

 

You're right Peter you're never going to make a rule for every situation. But we can do way better than this for a very common situation. You could just say any overlap and you have to leave room. 


Ralph Provitz
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#26
Peter Olivola

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I understand it is a guideline and not a rule. And we are held to the letter of the rule. 

 

So when Joe Smow. Blast in the side of a car that he had 2 foot overlap on and he gets a DQ per the GUIDLINE "he was in the Bermuda Triangle", He can appeal because the actual RULE says he should have been left racing room, 6.11.1. and he was racing by the rules? 

 

Or does the car that lost the side of the car get the DQ per 6.11.1 and is told the guideline is not a rule and thus doesn't play. It's just in the GCR for ??????

 

You're right Peter you're never going to make a rule for every situation. But we can do way better than this for a very common situation. You could just say any overlap and you have to leave room. 

 

I'm sure we both can concoct hypotheticals to demonstrate anything, but dealing with actuals is far less complex provided we have enough information.  I've yet to see a situation with good witnesses and/or good video that was difficult to resolve. 

 

And this isn't sailboat racing where they effectively have no brakes.



#27
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Well I sure hope everyone is on the same page when we get on track. Right now its even more confusing than it already ways. 

 

I guess the answer is wreck your car then we will tell you what you should have done.  Got it. 


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#28
Ron Alan

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Started this racing thing with SCCA and the SCCA GCR. Never really knew any different until started doing a lot more NASA events years later. Since I started running our local NASA SM 3 years ago I have been in many sit downs with drivers and race directors sorting out contact situations. During this same time I've still attended most local SCCA events as a renter or just crew. And during that time I've come to realize that although there is not a real difference in the intent of the rules...there is a real difference in how they are written and enforced!

 

Racing room is a great concept...problem is it needs a LOT more context wrapped around it. And up until now...though many of the best racers understand and live by "racing room"...they also know what IS NOT racing room. Problem is, a percentage of racers take the words "racing room" literally...they use that as a crutch rather than...the passing driver needs to complete a safe pass!

 

 

I understand it is a guideline and not a rule. And we are held to the letter of the rule. 

 

So when Joe Smow. Blast in the side of a car that he had 2 foot overlap on and he gets a DQ per the GUIDLINE "he was in the Bermuda Triangle", He can appeal because the actual RULE says he should have been left racing room, 6.11.1. and he was racing by the rules? 

 

Or does the car that lost the side of the car get the DQ per 6.11.1 and is told the guideline is not a rule and thus doesn't play. It's just in the GCR for ??????

 

 

 

I like your point Ralph that "guideline" and "rule" could potentially lead to confusion or misconception. That could be worked out.

 

Your example leaves out a lot of info but comes to a conclusion/conclusions...lets fix that!

 

1. At what point did Joe shmo gain the 2' overlap?

2. When contact was made between the leader and Joe...were both cars under control?

3. When contact was made, were both cars on the pavement?

4. When contact was made, can the trajectory of each car be determined(basically each car was or was not going to send the other off the track or into an obstruction or that pavement to drive on was left)

5. Did either car make any sudden movements(something that could not be anticipated).

 

I'm sure I might be leaving out more questions...but the bottom line is the potential outcome for the "Joe" incident could vary depending on answers to some or all of those questions! There will be no appeal! 


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#29
38bfast

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Started this racing thing with SCCA and the SCCA GCR. Never really knew any different until started doing a lot more NASA events years later. Since I started running our local NASA SM 3 years ago I have been in many sit downs with drivers and race directors sorting out contact situations. During this same time I've still attended most local SCCA events as a renter or just crew. And during that time I've come to realize that although there is not a real difference in the intent of the rules...there is a real difference in how they are written and enforced!

 

Racing room is a great concept...problem is it needs a LOT more context wrapped around it. And up until now...though many of the best racers understand and live by "racing room"...they also know what IS NOT racing room. Problem is, a percentage of racers take the words "racing room" literally...they use that as a crutch rather than...the passing driver needs to complete a safe pass!

 

 

 

I like your point Ralph that "guideline" and "rule" could potentially lead to confusion or misconception. That could be worked out.

 

Your example leaves out a lot of info but comes to a conclusion/conclusions...lets fix that!

 

1. At what point did Joe shmo gain the 2' overlap? At turn in

2. When contact was made between the leader and Joe...were both cars under control?

3. When contact was made, were both cars on the pavement?

4. When contact was made, can the trajectory of each car be determined(basically each car was or was not going to send the other off the track or into an obstruction or that pavement to drive on was left)

5. Did either car make any sudden movements(something that could not be anticipated).

 

I'm sure I might be leaving out more questions...but the bottom line is the potential outcome for the "Joe" incident could vary depending on answers to some or all of those questions! There will be no appeal! 

1. At what point did Joe shmo gain the 2' overlap? At turn in

2. When contact was made between the leader and Joe...were both cars under control?yes

3. When contact was made, were both cars on the pavement?yes

4. When contact was made, can the trajectory of each car be determined(basically each car was or was not going to send the other off the track or into an obstruction or that pavement to drive on was left)

Leader was on a trajectory to the apex after he turned in. Passing car was on a arc to hold tight to the inside. 

5. Did either car make any sudden movements(something that could not be anticipated). Nope all normal. Lead care was on normal line, Start wide dive to apex track out. Passing car typical inside pass, late brake, stick it in and go for it. 

 

All the typical class room stuff. Two cars come to the same corner and the inside car goes for the pass with similar speeds going in. At the point of turn in of the lead car the passing car had 2 foot of overlap. 


Ralph Provitz
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#30
Ron Alan

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You may have missed my point? My some what tongue in check questions were not meant for you to answer but to illustrate that you cant cookie cut every situation/scenario. "Racing room" just doesn't always apply. And the fact SCCA is using some well respected racers to help "add" a little clarification/better understanding to the passing rules would indicate to me there has been issues/complaints with the current version? 


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#31
LarryKing

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What if we just put strip of bright yellow duct tape on our mirrors? If you're not even with the tape then you don't attempt the pass.

 

(Great Lakes old-timers will get this "Pirate" reference.)


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#32
gerglmuff2

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making the task of passing getting to the A pillar, where it meets the body, is a high burden, and will likely create more contact, rather than less because the defending driver can turn down on the attacking driver in most overlap situations. 

my rule of thumb has always been the door. if the attacker is to the door at turn in, he has a right to racing room and you can't turn down on him. as mentioned, sometimes it pays for the defender to leave racing room for folks with even less overlap too. 


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#33
Danica Davison

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#34
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^    :rotfl:

 

PC, it's been a while.


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