Jump to content

Photo

How Can I learn To Trail Brake Better

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1
bmarshall1

bmarshall1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 155 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:North Carolina
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:23

Like the title says...  From what I can learn, one should brake hard initially then slowly release the brakes until the apex then roll back on the throttle, and that if one is on the throttle before the apex then you have over-braked, right?

 

I find myself doing this constantly and then not carrying the corner speed that I need.  But when I try to trail-brake, the rear gets loose and the only way I can settle the car is to get off the brakes, the car always feels best (settled) being on the throttle coming through a corner.

 

I am running DTC 60/30 pads and the braking seems pretty neutral with the fronts locking up before the rears.  3.2/2.7 camber about 4 5/8 ride height on Bilstiens on a 99

 

I know that coaching would be the best, but it's not in the cards right now.



#2
gerglmuff2

gerglmuff2

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 229 posts
  • Location:St Paul MN
  • Region:LOL
  • Car Year:1993
  • Car Number:81

the other reason you might be getting on the power pre-apex is actually that you've turned in too late. try turning in earlier, with your foot still a bit on the brakes. if the car is wildly loose, maybe a hair more understeer in the setup. 


Gordon Kuhnley: Driving miata's in all conditions, courses, and motorsports that I can. 


#3
bmarshall1

bmarshall1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 155 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:North Carolina
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:23

the other reason you might be getting on the power pre-apex is actually that you've turned in too late. try turning in earlier, with your foot still a bit on the brakes. if the car is wildly loose, maybe a hair more understeer in the setup. 

 Thanks Gordon,

 

I do need to work on my consistency, I will be the first to admit that.  I try different turn in points but I feel you may be on the right path.  I only get out a few time per year so it kinda like starting all over again.

 

OK - to play this out a bit, let's say I try a earlier turn and still get the same loose feeling. What changes will bring a bit more understeer, I am full soft in the rear on swaybar.  Should I be looking at tire pressure, camber?



#4
Peter Olivola

Peter Olivola

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 176 posts

The most common cause of overseer during trail braking is excessive rear brake bias.  I don't know what you can/can not do with an SM, but finding a pad combination that favors front lock up before rear is one way to fix it.



#5
bmarshall1

bmarshall1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 155 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:North Carolina
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:23

Thanks Peter,  I'll look into different pad combos.  I have been using DTC 60/30 and it seems* ok to me,  I used my friends car the other day and he was on Hawk Blues and I could not really tell any differences in braking power or lock-up points.

 

It was also suggested in another thread to lower my rear to remove any rake, doesn't that stabilize the rear a bit?



#6
Alberto

Alberto

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,363 posts
  • Location:Mountain View, CA
  • Region:SFR
  • Car Year:1990

Fwiw, I ran the DTC60/60 combo for a few years then switched to 60/30 to try and make trail brake easier.  I also spun too easily when trail braking with those Hawk pads.  Switching to Carbotech or G-Loc pads REALLY helped improve my trail braking.  It was a big difference.  I think the 12/10 are the recommended compounds with Hoosiers/Toyo RR but give them a call to confirm.  

 

Lots of people recommended the 10/8 but those are better with the lower grip RA1s if I remember my convo with them from a few years ago.  


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#7
bmarshall1

bmarshall1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 155 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:North Carolina
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:23

Fwiw, I ran the DTC60/60 combo for a few years then switched to 60/30 to try and make trail brake easier.  I also spun too easily when trail braking with those Hawk pads.  Switching to Carbotech or G-Loc pads REALLY helped improve my trail braking.  It was a big difference.  I think the 12/10 are the recommended compounds with Hoosiers/Toyo RR but give them a call to confirm.  

 

Lots of people recommended the 10/8 but those are better with the lower grip RA1s if I remember my convo with them from a few years ago.  

 

Thanks for the brake pad tips, before I make any pad changes I'll try my new set up to see if I still need to make any changes



#8
TylerQuance

TylerQuance

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 70 posts
  • Location:Houston
  • Region:Texas
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:70

It was also suggested in another thread to lower my rear to remove any rake, doesn't that stabilize the rear a bit?


Yes. It will also give you a little more rear camber which you need. Make sure you have your sway bar shackle spacers in per the GCR.

#9
bmarshall1

bmarshall1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 155 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:North Carolina
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:23

Yes. It will also give you a little more rear camber which you need. Make sure you have your sway bar shackle spacers in per the GCR.

Thanks Tyler, when you say 'shackle spacers' are you referring to a washer placed underneath the "U" shaped bracket that holds the poly bushing? Already did that and re-greased.

 

I definitely need more camber, I was always maxed out around 2.7 and both sides weren't even on the adjustment cams. I purchased a set of Advance Autosport jigs and jigged all the components and at least 1 if not 2 pieces were bent in each corner, including the rear subframe.  There was enough adjustment to get things evened out but not where I wanted the numbers to be.  hopefully once put back together I'll get 3.5 ish front and rear.



#10
Alberto

Alberto

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,363 posts
  • Location:Mountain View, CA
  • Region:SFR
  • Car Year:1990

Thanks Tyler, when you say 'shackle spacers' are you referring to a washer placed underneath the "U" shaped bracket that holds the poly bushing? Already did that and re-greased.

 

Yep.

 

I bought those jigs also.  They are awesome.  


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#11
Martinracing98

Martinracing98

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 136 posts

I do need to work on my consistency, I will be the first to admit that.

I would work on consistency first then worry about trail braking. Braking in a corner takes a lot more precision than on the straight and for many results in more slower laps than fast. Get the braking consistent and then start adding in trail braking once you improve consistency.  


  • Steve Scheifler likes this

#12
bmarshall1

bmarshall1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 155 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:North Carolina
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:23

I would work on consistency first then worry about trail braking. Braking in a corner takes a lot more precision than on the straight and for many results in more slower laps than fast. Get the braking consistent and then start adding in trail braking once you improve consistency.  

I agree, I really need to pony up for some Data Acquisition but the price is pretty steep and I see few if any used ones out there.  I think that would help a lot, then invest in some coaching.



#13
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,519 posts
  • Location:St. Louis

I agree, I really need to pony up for some Data Acquisition but the price is pretty steep and I see few if any used ones out there. I think that would help a lot, then invest in some coaching.


Take a close look at the new Garmin Catalyst. It is NOT a typical data system so when I say a close look I mean that literally, so you really understand what it is and is not, but it’s shaping up to be a very good first step into data and coaching, and a good supplement for those already using traditional systems.
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#14
bmarshall1

bmarshall1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 155 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:North Carolina
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:23

Steve - it looks like a pretty awesome product and what I am looking for, tell me if I'm reading it correctly.  It's not a dash (AIM) and no actual car inputs (oil, brake, acceleration, etc).  But, it records your (my) laps and compares my current lap to best lap and 'coaches' me by bluetooth: Brake now, turn now, apex here etc....  Can I compare my lap to your lap?

 

Can I download the camera and watch the laps with the overlay on my laptop.  I assume all the data from all users is uploaded to Garmin, so in theory it 'knows' the best lap to take, say... based on SPEC Miata input.  Do I have this correct and what did I leave out.

 

I read your short user experience, any additional thoughts based upon extended use?



#15
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,519 posts
  • Location:St. Louis
First, watch Garmin’s YouTube videos. There are just a few and they aren’t long or very detailed but they give you a decent overview. But in short you are correct about no car data inputs. There is also no built-in information about tracks other than the approximate location of start/finish lines. Uploads to Garmin Connect at this time are of little use. They are a highly condensed 1 hz GPS path with speed, nothing more. Essentially the same data for people using their other gear hiking, biking etc.

Data analysis is limited to the screens and stats provided by the tablet and the raw data is not made available for export other than the above mentioned condensed GPS track. Viewed within the system the video does include speed, running lap time and best lap but that’s about it. You can pull the full session video and separate stitched together “optimal lap” video off the SD card but they do not include any overlay. (Yes, this is a common bitching point along with no OBD or CAN inputs, data export, etc.) The simple answer to why is that they add nothing to making you faster. This is a VERY focused single-minded version 1.0 of a genuinely new device. I admire them for that but honestly, not having an instant upload to YouTube, FB ... with the basic overlay was marketing malpractice. But put that distraction aside.

What’s not obvious is that the AI claims aren’t just marketing BS. The core of what makes this truly different is the camera (which also holds the accelerometers) which must be carefully aligned during setup. That camera supplies a view of the track so the AI can look for the edges of the track surface (think self-driving car tech). As you do your initial laps it uses that input to draw the actual track shape as well as plotting your path on it. Other systems draw your trajectory and may be able to superimpose that on a map or aerial of the track so you can tweak their alignment, but you need to be really careful trusting any representation of your line relative to the pavement. In theory, this learns/draws the track surface and your lateral position on it using the camera, and the GPS provides your progress and speed along that path. With that information the AI knows whether you apex early or late, or miss by 5ft one lap compared to another, etc.

But, it doesn’t know what’s possible until you do it and won’t assume T3 has the same grip as T2, or anything else for that matter. In theory, if you do every lap exactly the same way every time, it will never recommend a change. But nobody does that and those with the most potential to improve do it less. As you do laps it keeps track of what line, what brake points, rate and duration work best then presents that analysis to you in simple live voice prompts during a session and in up to three “Opportunities” for improvement in post-session review. It also provides some consistency stats and their version of theoretical best lap which they call True Optimal lap. The name is easily misconstrued but what makes it different is that the AI works out which fastest segments really can be accomplished in succession and blends them to come up with that best-case lap time and stitches together a video with the segments they have used. Other systems simply add fastest sectors which may not even be achievable as a full lap.

That’s actually a very short and incomplete summary. Watch the videos, read the FB group posts but keep in mind most the people are wrong about a lot so pay attention to the one Garmin guy who sometimes chimes in.
  • callumhay likes this
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#16
bmarshall1

bmarshall1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 155 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:North Carolina
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:23

Great info Steve.  I Have watched a few videos and I think you're spot-on in your analysis.  I'll check out their Facebook page.  I also think you hit on a good point, those with the least consistent laps have the most to gain.

 

It'll be interesting to see how this tech develops,  I generally am not an early adopter of tech, but I may have to pull the trigger on one of these.



#17
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,036 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41

What’s not obvious is that the AI claims aren’t just marketing BS. The core of what makes this truly different is the camera (which also holds the accelerometers) which must be carefully aligned during setup. That camera supplies a view of the track so the AI can look for the edges of the track surface (think self-driving car tech). As you do your initial laps it uses that input to draw the actual track shape as well as plotting your path on it. Other systems draw your trajectory and may be able to superimpose that on a map or aerial of the track so you can tweak their alignment, but you need to be really careful trusting any representation of your line relative to the pavement. In theory, this learns/draws the track surface and your lateral position on it using the camera, and the GPS provides your progress and speed along that path. With that information the AI knows whether you apex early or late, or miss by 5ft one lap compared to another, etc.

But, it doesn’t know what’s possible until you do it and won’t assume T3 has the same grip as T2, or anything else for that matter. In theory, if you do every lap exactly the same way every time, it will never recommend a change. But nobody does that and those with the most potential to improve do it less. As you do laps it keeps track of what line, what brake points, rate and duration work best then presents that analysis to you in simple live voice prompts during a session and in up to three “Opportunities” for improvement in post-session review. It also provides some consistency stats and their version of theoretical best lap which they call True Optimal lap. The name is easily misconstrued but what makes it different is that the AI works out which fastest segments really can be accomplished in succession and blends them to come up with that best-case lap time and stitches together a video with the segments they have used. Other systems simply add fastest sectors which may not even be achievable as a full lap.

That’s actually a very short and incomplete summary. Watch the videos, read the FB group posts but keep in mind most the people are wrong about a lot so pay attention to the one Garmin guy who sometimes chimes in.

 

That's very interesting.  Been trying to do that the "hard way" via my Racepak system.   It definitely takes a lot of work to deal with the "issues" of achievable segments. 

 

Its been interesting to see how Garmin has manage to cope with the major disruption in what was the core of its commercial business.  They really have pivoted into completely new product lines, and technologies in a way that very few companies manage to do when disruptions happen.


-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#18
bmarshall1

bmarshall1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 155 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:North Carolina
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:23

I was describing the Garmin to a friend, we were both getting ready to pull the trigger on a $2,500-$2,800 data system, in order to gather data, in order to review it, and then using our limited knowledge try to figure out where we can go faster.  This Garmin takes the guess work out reviewing data and tells me what to do.

 

It would be interesting to take a unit and put it in a front runner's car, then have a top 10 skill level driver run the same car to see if it could coach the top 10 person to a top 3 lap time.



#19
Craig Berry

Craig Berry

    Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPip
  • 346 posts
  • Location:Dallas TX
  • Region:TX
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:29

I really like trail braking.    Here are just a few points that help me.   Trail braking, even on the same track, same corner can change depending on your level of grip that particular session.... wish I had an easy way to tell you, but its just Feel and trial and error.   That being said I really like to trail brake on Non down shift turns so I can left foot brake.... much easier to drive with both feet, you can easily manipulate the brake and throttle depending on what you are feeling.   It’s a little harder on downshift turns, I will heel toe, but sometimes as soon as the downshift is complete I will cover the brake with my left just in case I need Trailing to an adjustment.   Do not know exactly why, but I have found turns that are positively cambered are great for trail braking.   Lastly, unless you are extremely good in an SM, I would not think too much about it except in practice.  This can get in your head and negatively effect your driving.... you do not want to be thinking about I need to do X in this turn, focus on the feel and carrying as much corner speed as possible.  Just because it was great yesterday, does not alway indicate it will work today.   Practice trailing, look at your Min corner speeds, but most importantly learn to feel what the car is telling you that particular session   

Good Luck


  • Steve Scheifler likes this
Circuit of the Americas Winner - Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#20
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,036 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41


you do not want to be thinking about I need to do X in this turn, focus on the feel and carrying as much corner speed as possible.  Just because it was great yesterday, does not alway indicate it will work today.   Practice trailing, look at your Min corner speeds, but most importantly learn to feel what the car is telling you that particular session   

 

That's Gold right there.  

 

Not that I'm anywhere near the drive that Craig is....


-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users