21 replies to this topic

[Bruce Wilson]

Guys/Girls,

We have an issue that needs to be addressed. I brought it up before but it appears we are headed for some rough road ahead unless we all start racing using the same rulebook. This is a very important topic that needs your attention if we are not to doom ourselves to repeating history. SM has always been a very competitive class in Oregon region. It produced the very first SM national champ and some of those folks that started SM in Oregon region are still with us and still winning races today. During the first several years of explosive growth and fierce competition, we started losing cars regularly -- at one point we cars were getting totaled at the rate of one per weekend. In that time, the front runners drivers started learning how to race tight and clean, as that is the only way to finish races week in and week out.

Now that we have a lot of new fast folks, we just need to show everyone how this can be accomplished without bouncing off each other... It can be done! At this point, (which is a first in Oregon Region) we have about 5-6 folks that could win a race any given weekend. Of those 5-6 drivers, I'm pretty sure that there is nobody who wants to win more than anyone else

Racing room is defined in section 6.11.1 of the 2011 GCR. These are the topics that was discussed with the stewards this weekend and we agreed that nobody was going to be written up, but that will not always be the case in the future.

A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on
the race track.

B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally
defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under
racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close
quarters.

C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room.
Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of
another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as
an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.


Please take the time to read this thread, there is so much good information, some if it is wrong but its a good group discussion of Racing Room as defined by SCCA GCR. Make sure to watch Mark Drennan's video on page 5, because it shows how the fast guys do it and get away with it every time (mostly )

http://forum.specmia...43;t=003756;p=0

If you have any additional questions, please don't hesitate to contact me to discuss. I'm sure Ken, Will, Brian Towey, and Gary have some great advice too

-Bruce

[Keith Novak]

My first question is how long did it take you to type that?

There may be some confusion between SCCA and Conference rules on racing room. I wasn't at it but heard about a Conference drivers meeting where they said you must be up to someone's mirror before you have a right to racing room but if you are, you're basically entitled to spear a driver on your outside. (That was the gist of it at least or so I'm told.) I was behind a brutal Conference crash at PR last year where I overheard one driver, known to be a bit rough argue exactly that with the officials after his car was in lots of little pieces scattered down by T1. Paraphrasing and omitting the obscenities, "It's not my fault. I had the right of way and can drive any line I want in that position."

[Bruce Wilson]

Thought about it for about 24 hours and wrote it in 15 minutes

Yes, the rules for conference and Nasa are quite different from SCCA. Each has advantages and disadvantages, but what is most important is that everyone uses the same rules when they're racing. In SCCA, any overlap between cars, even 1 inch, means that both cars must adjust their line. Thankfully SCCA Stewards all seem to agree with this notion now days, which is good because that's the way the rules are written . BTW This rule does NOT excuse dive bomb passes!!!

We've had a lot of issues during race starts lately with cars going 3 wide through the chicane and down the back straight. Spacial awareness is a must because you don't always have the luxury of looking in your mirrors all the time. We are just so lucky that we haven't had any real damage yet!

-bw

[Mike Colangelo]

Full disclosure: I'm a Conference racer and I currently race a wrong wheel drive Honda...but I used to race a Spec Miata

Keith, Conference rules state that when the front wheel of the car attempting a pass reaches the door of the front car before the turn-in point, then the front car owes the passing car room and cannot turn down to the apex. Conference rules also put equal responsibility on both cars for a safe pass.

No one is entitled to spear.

Is that any different than the SCCA rules?

But maybe the bigger issue is that the rough/overly aggressive drivers don't get penalized enough? Maybe the race stewards need to carry a bigger stick and use it? It would send a message.

Bruce: I apologize if this looks like a threadjack, but I see this as an issue in other race groups, too.

[Bruce Wilson]

Mike, I've never raced conference, but in Nasa the rule is very different than SCCA. Unless the rules have changed recently, drivers can and will make contact and hit/push you off line of you don't have your front end up to the door. I don't think everyone participates in that behavior but it is condoned/allowed in Nasa.

The SCCA has a protest process in which you can choose to participate in or just talk it out with the other driver. The stewards in Oregon region SCCA generally don't take action unless the protest process is invoked by one or both of the drivers.


-bw

[William Bonsell]

Conference Section 15.1504 states " Under all conditions, both the passed and the passing car shall be equally responsible for the safe passing of one by the other". Section 15. 1518 states ..."blocking is defined as a leading car choosing a racing line on the race track then drastically or radically changing that line in a manner that is clearly intended to stop or block a passing manuver by another car". I have found nothing specifically referencing racing room, though I presume that not providing racing room is a form of blocking. I assume both of the previous Conference statements pertain to straightaways as well as corner entries. At my last race at Pacific w/o the chicane, I was almost side by side at the entry of T1, having pulled out after drafting down the straight, and initially thought I was forced inside too much by the car I was attempting to pass. In other words, turned down on...not given racing room. On review of the video and being unacccustomed to close racing as a newbie, I came to the conclusion that I was given plenty of room inside but I moved more than needed to avoid contact. Had I held my line a bit more and remained on the throttle, I would have completed the pass.

What little video of SCCA Oregon I have watched this year (and it has all been Robert's), there definitely seems to be a lot of light contact going on up front. I commend Bruce for wanting everyone, regardless of track position, to avoid contact at all costs and to race clean.

I was at the Conference drivers meeting Keith is referring to. The reference to being at someone's mirror or door, was intended more to express caution to the overtaking car to not assume you have a right to the apex just because you are at the 1/4 or even a bit further. Drive defensively at that point understanding that the car being overtaken may in fact turn in on you. I would think any driver being overtaken would yield to the overtaking car if that car had the rear 1/4 or further. In any event, both drivers are responsible to avoid contact.

Here's hoping to race with SCCA Oregon at Rose Cup in June. Now if I can just register.

-Bill

[Ron Alan]

Bruce,

Can you clarify your statement and position with regards to divebomb passing and racing room?

When you say the rule doesn't excuse it(divebombing)...does this mean it is against the rules(specifically)?? Or if a car gets a nose in, even if it's at the very last second, based on "racing room" the front driver is obligated to be aware and give room? In other words, as per "racing room", however you get there is irrelevant. But your a dickhead if you divebomb to gain a spot...or even worse wreck 1 or 2 cars?

Thanks!

[Bruce Wilson]

Ron,

The thing about divebomb passes is that its like porn, most people "know it when they see it".

That phrase was famously used by United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe his threshold test for pornography in Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964).

There are some rules that less than concrete, but I've not seen anyone mistake a divebomb pass as just close racing. Besides there's usually lots of squeeling tires involved and the speed and trajectory of the cars are generally different.

-bw

[Keith Novak]

We had a lot of great discussion at the Art of Racing clinic on racing room and clean passing vs. dive bombs complete with videos, diagrams, etc. I doubt I can do it justice but here’s the summary version of what I took from it:

Whether it’s a clean pass under braking or a dive bomb comes down to where the overlap has been established. If the overlap is achieved during the braking zone, the inside car has the right to room. If it’s achieved after the braking zone, it’s a dive bomb.

An extreme example is a car diving all the way down on the inside of the track to pass a car setting up for a turn all the way on the outside. The outside car will brake less and turn in earlier to make a wider arc through the corner carrying more speed. The inside car will be braking deeper into the corner since they will have a much tighter arc and need to go slower. The outside car turns in prior to overlap so they control the line. The inside car keeps braking and gets underneath while the outside car has already turned in.

The two cars are going different speeds and on different lines that intersect. The inside car is likely to hit the outside one right squarely in the side, which makes sorting out who did what difficult based on dent location alone.

After explaining all this at length, we were reminded there is always a lot of grey area and often it comes down to how much you want to force the issue but we’re now qualified to join in the numerous 300 post threads on racing room and who was at fault where there are as many opinions as posts.

[Ron Alan]

Ron,

The thing about divebomb passes is that its like porn, most people "know it when they see it".

That phrase was famously used by United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe his threshold test for pornography in Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964).

There are some rules that less than concrete, but I've not seen anyone mistake a divebomb pass as just close racing. Besides there's usually lots of squeeling tires involved and the speed and trajectory of the cars are generally different.

-bw

I asked the question with the utmost of respect and seriousness...and I hope/think you took it this way. Being relatively new still to the whole racing thing I like to gather info from the best...but it is interesting that even at the top there can be a be difference of opinion at times. Not saying that divebombing is acceptable but I have heard "racing room" used as a justification for being in the right when a driver late braked to get a nose in and take away an apex(or cause contact)...and it was accepted!!!

Though I think in SM it is super obvious when this occurs with 2 equal cars...it is not so obvious when it is a much faster car taking over a slower car. I will use the 25HR as an example which I'm sure you can relate to...or even lap traffic in a big SM field. In these situations divebombing seems to be acceptable...or it is certainly not penalized...especially when the car being overtaken recognizes the situation and does there best to avoid contact.

So I hope I'm correct in saying we both agree divebombing is BS...but there is nothing specific in the rules that prohibits it(someone please correct me if I'm wrong). And when it occurs with no incident the offender will get away scott-free other than maybe a tongue lashing in the paddock

[Mark de Regt]

Thanks for this, Bruce. The single thing I dislike the most about SM is the willingness of some folks to crash, just because they think they have the right. We've pretty much avoided that in Oregon Region before this year.

I started the thread you linked to. Despite many pages of posts, nobody ever convinced me that the SCCA rule that prohibits avoidable contact isn't still in effect. Whether one has the "right" to have one's nose in there or not, the other guy absolutely does not have the right to hit him. And if we're starting to lose what has been a very good culture, my interest in racing will take a further (and probably final) drop.

[BrianPDX]

Thanks for starting this thread Bruce. I think we should request the Steward to hold us at impound after the 1st Rose Cup Practice for a Driver's meeting. Then we can make sure the entire field is on the same page. I think we have a great group of driver's this year, but a remider now & then always helps. It's very easy to get caught in the heat of the moment, even when racing for position in the middle or back of the field.

[Glenn Davis]

Mike, I've never raced conference, but in Nasa the rule is very different than SCCA. Unless the rules have changed recently, drivers can and will make contact and hit/push you off line of you don't have your front end up to the door. I don't think everyone participates in that behavior but it is condoned/allowed in Nasa.

I have no skin in the Northwest.

Your NASA rules must be much different than ours in the Mid-Atlantic. Any contact on the track must be followed up by a contact report and an assessment of the event. The only contact that is not reported is bump drafting between willing parties.

We seem to have this same discussion in many regions every year. The only real solution is to make the penalties a true discouragement to the practice. Until that happens, these threads will continue to exist.

[Mark de Regt]

I have no skin in the Northwest.

Your NASA rules must be much different than ours in the Mid-Atlantic. Any contact on the track must be followed up by a contact report and an assessment of the event. The only contact that is not reported is bump drafting between willing parties.

We seem to have this same discussion in many regions every year. The only real solution is to make the penalties a true discouragement to the practice. Until that happens, these threads will continue to exist.

Glenn, I couldn't agree more.

The thread Bruce linked to was a real eye-opener to me, several years ago. Many experienced drivers insisted on their absolute right to hit the guy sticking his nose (or more) in at the turn, totally denying that that is "avoidable contact" as proscribed in the rules (or worse, saying the car on the inside, hewing to the inside line, initiated the contact).

As long as the SCCA rules (which are long and horribly written to be ambiguous) are interpreted in ways that allows that interpretation, the problem will persist and grow. The only real solution is to whack people for initiating contact. If the overtaking car was being optimistic, whack that driver, also, but when the leader knew or should have known of the other car's presence, and turns in on it, the driver of that car should get whacked. Any other result encourages contact.

[dstevens]

Your NASA rules must be much different than ours in the Mid-Atlantic. Any contact on the track must be followed up by a contact report and an assessment of the event. The only contact that is not reported is bump drafting between willing parties.

They ain't got no NASA up in the rain forest. Bruce's recollection of the NASA rules isn't correct. It's racing, gang. You are going to get someone else's paint on your car from time to time. Drive a guy off track or hooking him in the rear or bending up his car then the officials should get involved. Having to file papers just because a fender touched to me is a bullshit rule.

[Mark de Regt]

It's racing, gang. You are going to get someone else's paint on your car from time to time. Drive a guy off track or hooking him in the rear or bending up his car then the officials should get involved. Having to file papers just because a fender touched to me is a bullshit rule.

I'm pretty sure we all know it's racing. And racing at the very highest level of SM, with some of the very best SM racers in the country (Just ask the SFR guys).

I agree that trading paint, or minor bumps, is not a reason for getting stewards involved. But sending someone into the weeds is. Incidental, minor contact should not be cause for real concern (but a private talk may well be in order). Someone gets sent spinning, so that he loses time that cannot be made up, and there should be repercussions. Perhaps for both. I think that's all Bruce is suggesting.

The money only goes one way already; we're not racing for large cash prizes. I'm not particularly interested in a culture creeping in that accepts unnecessary crashes in an amateur, local (including national races) event. And I'll stay away from the big events where so much carnage takes place.

[dstevens]

I agree that trading paint, or minor bumps, is not a reason for getting stewards involved. But sending someone into the weeds is. Incidental, minor contact should not be cause for real concern (but a private talk may well be in order). Someone gets sent spinning, so that he loses time that cannot be made up, and there should be repercussions. Perhaps for both. I think that's all Bruce is suggesting.

My comments are directed at the NASA rule requiring all contact to be documented. I think you and I, and Bruce for that matter are on the same page. If anything I think the SCCA goes as far but in the other direction. When Voytec's car comes in on the hook and is missing more or less the front clip, it shouldn't take a protest to initiate an investigation. I'd go as far as to support a rule like in Playboy Cup where the stewards can access your data and camera if there is an incident. As far as the guy that speared the other guy and thought he had the right to do that, why does he still have a license? If a guy runs out of talent and is truly apologetic maybe sit him down for a race, probation and what not. OTOH if a guy just tanks you he should be done for the season. Then on probation for the next season.

[Keith Novak]

I think people are pretty good at policing each other in these parts. Contact does happen. It's usually discussed between the individuals and settled amiciably.

I'm always curious as to what happened when I hear something did, but those invloved typically sort it out among themselves, and keep it to themselves. I stopped asking what happened once I learned that.

I don't see any finger pointing here, merely a reminder to fellow competitors that as competitive as we may get, keep your wits about you and avoid the red mist so we can do it tomorrow and next month too. (That and Bruce loves the slick paint job on his new car and wants to keep it looking pretty when he brings home more checkered flags. ) People have come from other regions and noted how we seem very civil compared to some where you're doing good if you can keep the same car for 2 seasons.

[Bruce Wilson]

Not really wanting to make this a Nasa vs. Conference vs. SCCA discussion... Although I've drove in 3 Nasa 25 hour races and I stand by my claim that there are significant differences in the rules concerning on course contact and have great anecdotal evidence, but we can leave that for another thread. But please remember I said "Each has advantages and disadvantages, but what is most important is that everyone uses the same rules when they're racing."
-bw

[Terrell Garrett]

Despite the Conference "take out" rule, I found that at the last Conference race with one exception everyone gave plenty of racing room and were complete gentlemen (and a lady) at all times. A couple of us had a quiet non-official discussion with the Steward about the outlaw whereby they took him over to the slough and dunked him three times.