60 replies to this topic

[Brandon]

This could put me on the "used to go racing list" as well. Not because of the cost, but because of the design. Simply put, I believe that the HANS is an inferior design to another device that is out there (which I have been wearing for five years and have "tested" once). I resent like hell the idea that the SCCA is going to legislate me into wearing a device that compromises my safety. I have been looking at the alternatives to the HANS and am not impressed with what I see. Each one of them is going to require me to purchase a winged seat because of their lessened ability in an offset impact that will reduce my egress ability from the car.

Thanks, SCCA.

Wrecker (can I call you "Wrecker"? ), it's not the SCCA that's legislating you into wearing one. It's the SFI/FIA that's done it. They have devised a specification for a "mostly effective" HNR that they feel all of their driving participants must adhere to for (liability) safety purposes. The SCCA is merely putting a check in the box next to SFI/38.1 or FIA/8858 and calling themselves compliant (and hoping to see a potential drop in insurance costs I'd bet). As others have noted, SCCA Pro has required it for a number of years now and NASA started last year.

Regarding your alternative device** that you feel is more effective (vs. the market leader Hans) I can't comment on other than to say the manufacturer of this device (I'd hoped) had the opportunity to work through the SFI/FIA process to garner the necessary certifications for it. Whether the manufacturer/designer was of less capabilities (financial, administrative, or otherwise...) to pursue or some other scenario that's for them to chime in.

Best of luck for 2012 though.
Brandon

** I recall reading about an alternate device which the designer of was rather prolific in his prose on some Internet boards. If this is the one you're referring to (Alvin/Atcheson/?? device? *shrug*) the designer seemed more interested in publicizing the political nature of the SFI/FIA process (for the 38.1 HNR specification) than redesigning his product to meet the decided spec. To each his own but it's not like there was a captive market of racers buying the Hans brand 5,6,7 years ago before they were mandated.

[Todd Green]

** I recall reading about an alternate device which the designer of was rather prolific in his prose on some Internet boards. If this is the one you're referring to (Alvin/Atcheson/?? device? *shrug*) the designer seemed more interested in publicizing the political nature of the SFI/FIA process (for the 38.1 HNR specification) than redesigning his product to meet the decided spec. To each his own but it's not like there was a captive market of racers buying the Hans brand 5,6,7 years ago before they were mandated.

Are you thinking of the Isaac system? In any case seemed like the designer was cutting off his nose to spite his face. Back in 2006 when I was looking at which device to buy/use, he had no interest in working with clubs to get his device approved. I'm not sure who he thought would buy it if it wasn't approved by the various clubs.

[Brandon]

Todd - bimbo!

That would be the gentleman and product in question I was referring to.
Whether it was the same as Wreckerboy I don't know though...
Thanks!

[wreckerboy]

One and the same - I am a user of his product and have no desire to get into a debate over his internet persona here. I purchased and used the product based upon its merits and have been very pleased with it in the two occasions I've had to field test the thing. I'm looking at non-HANS alternatives and am not finding much that I like.

[svvs]

Doesn't the defndr offer some lateral protection? It's also adjustable for recline I believe.

i'm a HANS guy, but saying that doesn't offer any help on the debate.

http://www.defnderne...om/testing.html

[Bench Racer]

Rob, I'm also a user of the Issac. NO lateral load reduction device required as is required by the HANS to get equal protection. IIRC the Issac reduces the lateral load by 86%. Find a DeFnder that is SFI certified & buy it. I have my eye on one but the retired driver is not quite ready to let go. Oh, a side load reduction device is not required with a DeFnder because it's later load reduction is similar to the Issac.

[Jason J Ball]

I've got an R3 and it offeres better lateral protection than a HANS. But the R3 is not all that comfortable for road racing because it goes down the spine and straps around the chest. Their is a hideaway foam pad for the seat that might as well be steel. Getting in and out is not a problem, but if you have your seat leaned back it limits your side to side movement too much. It gives me bruises on my back too so I'm looking at the Hybrid which doesn't go down the back or require the seat pad.

I really don't understand the attitude against this safety equipment. Don't wanna wear a HANS, go play golf! Racing is expensive, if your budget can't handle a one time $600 safety item that lasts for years than you shouldn't be racing.

[Juan Pineda]

I bought my HANS in 2004 when I started racing. Amortized over 7.5 years, that's $100/year. What other item do you spend less than $100/year in racing? It's well worth the expense.

[dstevens]

Wrecker (can I call you "Wrecker"? ), it's not the SCCA that's legislating you into wearing one. It's the SFI/FIA that's done it. They have devised a specification for a "mostly effective" HNR that they feel all of their driving participants must adhere to for (liability) safety purposes. The SCCA is merely putting a check in the box next to SFI/38.1 or FIA/8858 and calling themselves compliant (and hoping to see a potential drop in insurance costs I'd bet). As others have noted, SCCA Pro has required it for a number of years now and NASA started last year.

SFI and FIA have zero to do with causing the implementation of any safety devices in any sanction. The SCCA as a sanctioning body is requiring the device. SFI and FIA develop standards that the sanction can choose by which to abide. The sanction in and of itself chooses to adopt the spec. As for insurance, it's not going down and the use of a head and neck isn't getting them favorable rates. Some like to play the insurance card but no one can document any of the claims.

[Keith Novak]

Doesn't the defndr offer some lateral protection? It's also adjustable for recline I believe.
http://www.defnderne...om/testing.html

Yes they do provide some lateral protection and are adjustable. It's a shame they're not going to continue making them. I really like mine. I suspect they may have lost their shirts defending the patent infringement lawsuit from HANS.

I was a bit suprised to see Leatt isn't making HNR for car racing anymore. Their moto-x brace is very popular. Their auto racing design looked very nice protecting fwd, aft, lateral and compression.

[wheel]

Brandon - wrong
dstevens - right

Insurance costs will not drop with the mandating of the HNR for 2012. SFI and FIA write the specifications and the sanctioning body then ignores, recommends or mandates the usage of items that have been certified, under either or both SFI and FIA.
To not mandate, when almost every other sanctioning body has already mandated, might expose you to additional liability should an injury occur. The SCCA BoD voted to mandate one more safety device, like roll cages, five point harnesses, fire systems and fuel cells.
When I went to my first driver's school, I had a simple roll bar, a four point harness, no fire system, a stock gas tank that was fully exposed, and a single layer driver's suit. Time and safety marches on.

wheel

[Todd Green]

Todd - bimbo!

Can guys even be bimbos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvavPJtSIUM

[pitbull113]

the problem with the defnder is SFI is pushing for all head and neck restraints to be recertified every 5 years. will the defnder be around in 5 years to do it?

[wheel]

The SCCA does not require dates on their SFI certified H&N restraints. I really doubt that they will.

[pitbull113]

The SCCA does not require dates on their SFI certified H&N restraints. I really doubt that they will.

It's not up to the SCCA. So when SFI decides these devices need to be recertified every 5 years what's the SCCA going to do?

[wheel]

My guess is that they will deal with it like they do the window net. If it was certified, it is good until a tech inspection shows that it is no longer safe.

[pitbull113]

My guess is that they will deal with it like they do the window net. If it was certified, it is good until a tech inspection shows that it is no longer safe.

I hope you're right.

[Jerry Cabe]

Jerry, I didn't know you crashed yachts for a living!

I was just the Program Manager. Did labatory and on water crash testing of 43 and 44' yachts in the Florida Keys and Lake Como in Italy. Had a very brave employee pilot the yachts in the states, and Fabio Buzzi (renounded off-shore racer and designer) do the piloting in Italy. This type of testing had never been done before, so we really had to establish the industry protocol. I get into some really interesting projects where I consult.

And BTW, I had the pilots utilizing a HANS during the on-water high-speed tests.

[Steve D]

What other item do you spend less than $100/year in racing?

Trophy polishing paste. Everything else is >$100/year.

[dmathias]

Just living the dream, eh Jerry?

Thankfully, trophy polishing hasn't been an issue for me.