136 replies to this topic

[Ken SM94]

My vote is to allow both the Toyo and Hoosier for Oregon Region for 2012. The mid season switch does not make sense to me. I started 2011 purchasing 2 sets of new RA-1s and phased them in through the season. They are now getting to the end of their service life, so they probably won't make it to mid 2012.

As far as STL is concerned, one could argue that it is open DOT tire. STL is a GCR Regional only class, and there is no GCR SM spec tire rule for Regionals. I posed this question last year to the Oregon Region Deputy Executive Steward, but got no answer. So I would propose that we be proactive and word our Supps to clearly state that the Oregon Region SM Spec tire rule for Regionals does not apply to SM cars running in STL. This will provide a place for folks to burn up their old tires or provide a place for folks to play the tire game.

Jim

Jim, I think your idea is the best senario for the guys running Nationals as we would be able to test the Hoosiers in the regional races. The question is whether it hurts the regional guy to have us out there with guys on Toyos.

After thinking it through for a while now it seems to me that allowing either one of the dry or rains from day one may be best way to go.

[Keith Novak]

As far as STL is concerned, one could argue that it is open DOT tire. STL is a GCR Regional only class, and there is no GCR SM spec tire rule for Regionals. I posed this question last year to the Oregon Region Deputy Executive Steward, but got no answer. So I would propose that we be proactive and word our Supps to clearly state that the Oregon Region SM Spec tire rule for Regionals does not apply to SM cars running in STL. This will provide a place for folks to burn up their old tires or provide a place for folks to play the tire game.

Jim,
It does say that a Spec Miata in full trim is eligible. I know I found that because when we introduced the class I wondered if I could speed up my 1.8, found that and then found other reasons why a SM wouldn't be legal and thought "Full trim it is!"

One could argue eligible full trim to the national ruleset rather than any regional provisions which would make Hoosiers legal. That actually wouldn't be too bad. It would provide a place for people to start figuring out the tire. Test days are a lot more espensive than adding a 2nd class and if we do go half a season before using the new tires, a lot of people will be starting from square one when we do.

It might actually be good for the OR region in general. The most cars I've ever seen in STL is 6. Usually it's 2 to 4 cars. If we give people a place to test out the new tires on the cheap, it might encourage participation, up the numbers and thereby increase our club's revenue. For the extra money, you can race tooth and nail or be a bit conservative and use it as more of a testing session.

- SM drivers who want to start learning the tires get a more convinient venue to do it it
- It doesn't hurt the competitive nationals crowd with early season regionals points and parity issues
- Anyone brand new or out of tires has the option to run STL only to not buy more RA1s
- STL gets bigger
- OR region gets more revenue
- No additional room required in the paddock area

What's not to like?

[Alberto]

All tires reward smooth.

I was referring to slip angle and at the limit behavior.

[Jim Graffy]

After thinking it through for a while now it seems to me that allowing either one of the dry or rains from day one may be best way to go.

Ken - Apparently my post was not clear on that point. I agree. RA-1 & SM6 / H2O for all of 2012.

I am further suggesting that we purposely state that in Oregon Region, SM cars in STL may run what ever DOT tire they can mount on the 15x7 rims, rather than have try to interpret the combination of Regional/National SM rules in the GCR, how they interact with the SM allowance in STL, and then how they both would interact with the Oregon Region Supps for SM.

Jim

[Rob Burgoon]

As for what's allowed in practice personally I think the rules should be the same as qualifying and race. Part of keeping costs down is stopping the arms race. One way to at least slow down the arms racee is no experimentation during practice. Otherwise people will try an otherwise illegal part during practice, find out it gains 2/10's, and then next thing we know there's a push for a rule change to make the part legal next year which forces everyone to spend money buying that part. What we need, and I'm totally serious here, is a three year rule freeze without exception.

Now that's just absurd.

[Keith Novak]

Jim, I think your idea is the best senario for the guys running Nationals as we would be able to test the Hoosiers in the regional races. The question is whether it hurts the regional guy to have us out there with guys on Toyos.

After thinking it through for a while now it seems to me that allowing either one of the dry or rains from day one may be best way to go.

It shouldn't hurt the regional guy much at all. It might bruise some egos as some people figure out pressures and driving style, some gettng faster and others slower for a period. It probably won't alter the podium status for the regional championship much if at all. Compromises can be made. The whole nature of compromises is that they aren't optimal for everyone, and we can complain or we can race.

[dstevens]

Now that's just absurd.

Perhaps but most professional sanctions and even local circle track require cars presented for official event practice to comply with class rules. It basically says when you present your car at the beginning of the event, it has to be able to pass tech. What's to stop someone from going to a local track day or PDX/TT to test some cheats? It's not like there is comprehensive tech in regional club sports car racing. Even with the hobby stock there was a pre practice tech, post race tech for all and the top five usually had to take something off the car.

[Ken SM94]

Ken - Apparently my post was not clear on that point. I agree. RA-1 & SM6 / H2O for all of 2012.

I am further suggesting that we purposely state that in Oregon Region, SM cars in STL may run what ever DOT tire they can mount on the 15x7 rims, rather than have try to interpret the combination of Regional/National SM rules in the GCR, how they interact with the SM allowance in STL, and then how they both would interact with the Oregon Region Supps for SM.

Jim

Jim, I got it and agree on both SM and STL.

[Ken SM94]

It shouldn't hurt the regional guy much at all. It might bruise some egos as some people figure out pressures and driving style, some gettng faster and others slower for a period. It probably won't alter the podium status for the regional championship much if at all. Compromises can be made. The whole nature of compromises is that they aren't optimal for everyone, and we can complain or we can race.

That's what I keep thinking. I think now that we're moving past the shock of a new tire coming our way, the down sides seem less severe.

What am I missing?

[Terrell Garrett]

I'm in as it appears wiser minds are prevailing.

Ken, I don't think you are missing anything.

[Terrell Garrett]

Now that this discussion seems to be over, let's go racing. See you next weekend when we have the big runoff between the Will Schraeder prepared super car driven by my best friend Matt Robison and the cowboy prepared car driven by Mr. Wannabe (me). May the local boy win (he grew up here and moved away, I grew up in New Mexico and moved here -- who's the local?).

[Jerry Cabe]

It seems like one of the drawbacks to the Hoosiers is that it makes it impossible, pretty much, for anyone to drive their SM to the track which has always been an option on Toyo's for anyone just getting into the class on a tight budget. I think Randy as well as Stephen Hui did just that, if not others. I suspect the fast guys up front will line up with Hoosiers and run them whether the weekend is a national or regional event. Since there are certainly lots of tire options out there, I would tend to favor going to an open tire for regional events. Run a Hoosier, or a Toyo (if you can still get them) or a Hankook, or a Goodyear. I have 3 sets of newer RA-1's and certainly don't want to buy anymore tires or wheels for that matter also. I know many regions have an open tire. Just curious if anyone knows how that works out for them. At the very least, grandfather in RA-1's for 2012 for all regional events.

Regarding Randy's comments about more practice time. ProDrive is hugely expensive it seems. Why could not SCCA offer up Fridays as a Test and Tune much like Conference does before their Sat/Sun event. These T&T's generally cost in the neighborhood of $150-175. And generally broken down into three run groups, at least at Pacific.....Open wheel, closed wheel German cars, and everyone else. Lots of track time...very reasonable price.

Bill

Bill,

Two comments.

First, I think anyone that drives their fully caged SM to the track needs to have their head examined. There is just too much of a chance of a serious head injury in the event of some incident that causes an unprotected head to come in contact with the cage.

Only because you asked, in the Great Lakes Division, we have run all regional races as Open Tire ever since SM became a National Class. And even though there have been some naysayers arguing against this practice (usually from outside the division), it has run very smoothly with very few problems, and actually with some advantages. National drivers can run Regional events with either the national tire or with anything else. Drivers that run both National and Regional events can choose to run the national tire for all events if they want practice time with the national tire (or just want to scrub in some new ones), or they can save the national tires and run something else for the regional event. Regional only drivers can run whatever they want or can afford, be it new tires or other's discards. Having an open tire does not force anyone to buy extra tires or wheels to compete as some strong personalities want to make everyone believe.

[dmathias]

There is just too much of a chance of a serious head injury in the event of some incident that causes an unprotected head to come in contact with the cage.

You could always wear your helmet on the street.

[Jim Boemler]

Jerry, what tires do the fastest regional-only guys run there? Can anybody on another tire realistically be competitive with them?

[dmathias]

Anyone? No.

A very good driver on a track they know well - They can win on Toyo vs. Hoosier.

(Please note - I didn't not mention Mid-Ohio. For the purpose of this discussion lets say it was at Nelson - or does Nelson have 'special' asphalt too? )

- Not Jerry

[Bench Racer]

For the purpose of this discussion lets say it was at Nelson - or does Nelson have 'special' asphalt too? )
- Not Jerry

SO, now we know that at Road America the asphalt likes the 99 better than the 90.

[Mike Colangelo]

First, I think anyone that drives their fully caged SM to the track needs to have their head examined. There is just too much of a chance of a serious head injury in the event of some incident that causes an unprotected head to come in contact with the cage.

It can be done safely with the right roll cage padding. I used a copious amount of dual-density roll bar padding in my old rally car. Soft outer shell with a harder core. (Rally cars are driven on the street during transits, typically with the driver & co-driver not wearing helmets.) Any part of the cage where an occupant's head or extremity (leg, arm, hand, etc.) could possibly contact it was padded with this padding. Granted, it's probably more challenging in the Miata's confined cockpit.

I used this stuff with excellent results:
http://www.safedrive...prod=BSCI-DDpad

P.S. Sorry about pulling this thread off-topic

[Jim Boemler]

Careful about questioning a guy's religion, Mike.

[Randy Thieme]

So what's the latest? It's my understanding in all likelyhood we'll all have a chance to vote. Any word on when that may take place? I'd suggest the sooner the better so we can include the outcome of the vote in our winter maintenance plans.

[William Bonsell]

+1 Randy. Interesting that SFR seems headed for Toyo's ONLY! Isn't there a potential of RA1 shortages? I need new rains and would pefer the Hoosiers, especially at $166 per tire. If SFR goes 100% Toyo, that might make it a bit tough for the NW guys who head south from time to time. Hopefully, brighter minds than me will come up with the best options to put up for voting...but sooner than later, I hope.

Bill-