96 replies to this topic

[James York]

The cam modification gave it just enough adjustment to utilize the amount of adjusting space that was available but not usable without the cam being reduced on one side and increased on the other. He took material off one side, and welded additionaly material to the other side. As a machinist who makes parts from scratch he had the knowledge and expertise to do this with his own

Reggie,

As Tom pointed out. You are not permitted to modify pieces to get the alignment. To me it sounds that if you were able to modify a CAM to get your alignment, you probably have a bent part, bolt, or CAM. Did you check these before modifying?

Also, I don't know exactly how the modification was done, but it sounds like your fix is going to only work for one particular cam position. If you ever rotate the cam to change your alignment, it's off again, and worse than before the fix. Not sure, but I think a modified cam would only have one "correct" spot.

You got caught by the typical mistake of having someone who doesn't know the SM rules "fix" your car in an illegal way.

[Flyntgr]

Hundreds of dollars? Seriously? Holy crap! When all you had to do was take a couple measurements and visually inspect the parts? And now you have an illegal race car?

Sorry, but that seems a bit foolish.

Why did you ask us, if you weren't going to listen?

Well, Tom, I did listen, but I'm no mechanic. I took it to folks who are mechanics because I could not understand your sage advice. If the work he did was not legal, I'll get it replaced to get it right. I'm just trying to make the car safe, not to get it out of parameters to cheat. Camber is -3, well-within legal settings, and less than some. Had I any idea of cheating I wouldn't be posting it here, would I? Thanks for pointing this out to me. I'll get it right if it kills me.

[davew]

I had a whole paragraph typed, I did not like the tone of what I typed. So will just agree with James. He said it better than I did.

dave

[Tom Hampton]

Sorry, Reggie. I was a bit harsh this morning. I probably shouldn't post before I've brushed my teeth, I guess.

I didn't really mean "my advice", but rather Dave's. I'm just another guy on a forum...I could easily be wrong. DaveW on the other hand...is the ef hutton of SM. I was aware that my own post was a bit technical. Describing suspension geometry in textual form is a bit challenging unless you use precise terminology.

Okay, you're not a mechanic. I didn't realize that. Now we know.

Regardless however, you've got to know the rulebook, even if you pay someone else to do every ounce of the work on the car. Ultimately, it's you out there racing...no one's going to hold your mechanic accountable to the rules. Just you.

However, I'd recommend finding a local (or near local) SM shop to help keep you legal and safe. If your flush enough for your adventure trek to the frame shops, I'm assuming your flush enough to have a "guy".

FYI: There is no "camber spec" in the rules. The rule only says that camber is unrestricted within the stock adjustments of the car---so, no one is going to put a CC guages on your wheels and DQ you based on the measurement. However, there are a specific set of allowed modifications. This set of allowed mods, does not include altering the subframe, control arms, pickup points, or cam bolts in any way. Finally, all of these parts must me OEM parts. If teched, these parts would be compared to a Mazda "sample" part, if measurably different....not legal.

Since camber is clearly a tuning parameter, having extra range in adjustment is clearly an advantage. So, this would be a justifiable protest (in other words not a so called "weeny protest"). And you just told the world that you have this illegal mod on your car.

Fortunately, cam bolts are cheap. He could have modified the horseshoe on the subframe. That would have necesitated a whole new one of those....not quite as cheap.

[Tom Hampton]

I had a whole paragraph typed, I did not like the tone of what I typed. So will just agree with James. He said it better than I did.

dave

Yeah, my "tone filter" wasn't working before breakfast.

Am I wrong in my understanding of SAI and Caster?

I know you're busy. I don't need a long winded, detailed reply (like I tend to write ). I've been looking at my own suspension, drawing pictures, and re-reading Miliken & Miliken since this thread began. And I just can't figure out why you say "geometrically impossible", if we are discussing BENT parts (like the knuckle or spindle).

[Flyntgr]

New cam, bolt and nut are on order and scheduled for installation Thursday. THANKS to James, Dave, Tom, and everyone for contributing to an old dog's understanding of the rules. The repair will be simple,and the car will be legal in 2 days. The lessons we learn the hard way are not soon forgotten. This has been a hectic ordeal for me because there are NO SM mechanics nearby,and I'm sorting the car out from new. The closest Mazda dealer is an hour away, and they know nothing about racing! You guys are a great lifeline.

[Tom Hampton]

You bought a couple, right? I think you said he modified two bolts.

I can't tell where you are located. But, I'm sure there are some fellow SM racers nearby, whereever you are. It might be very informative to meet up with one or three. Some beer might get you a once-over on the car, and some good advice.

If you are anywhere near North Texas...you're welcome by my place...although there are more knowlegeable than me.

[davew]

OK, I went back and worked on The Alien, and I feel better.

It gets very frustrating for guys like myself, Drago, Collins, Glenn, etc. who give away thousands of dollars worth of advise, on the internet, for free. Only to have a car owner basicly not believe us, spend hundreds of dollars, waste a bunch of time, Only to do what we originally suggested. Not that you could not have weird problem that nobody has ever seen before. It Happens.

But when you run 12 cars at 20 races a year, your experience level grows exponentially. 12 cars at 20 events is 240 races each year that I prepare cars for. How many years will it take for the typical driver/owner/mechanic to get the aray of experiences that I get in a single season.

As for the rules. The driver is responsible for bringing a compliant car. Nobody else. YOU must invest in reading and understanding the rules for whatever sanctioning body and class, you plan on racing. I have a hard copy of the GCR, a electronic copy on my desktop and another on my laptop.

As for hiring outside mechanics. I was a very good street car mechanic. I worked with some very experienced crew chiefs to learn how to be a race car mechanic. As with almost anything in life, surround yourself with quality people, with the skill set you need. A title is not enough. A friend of mine has a PHD in engineering. He is a doctor, but he is not doing heart surgery on me!!! Go back to the rules, your mechanic will not get DQ'd or fail inspection. You will.

Now I have to go get some parts for The Alien
Dave

[Bench Racer]

There is always good help on this site. Some of us do have presentation skills that suck.

One thing all of the people here will agree to is that within the SCCA Spec Miata written rules it is understood that, if it (the rules) doesn't say you can, you can't. Pushing the gray area is normal but a visual feature change is not normal.


EDIT:
Dave, Flyntgr may not know what the "Alien" is.

[dmathias]

I'm just thankful Flyntgr's mechanical didn't pursue a career in brain surgery.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go 'flog the alien'.

[davew]

This is "The Alien" B-spec racer in progress.

The Allien will be at the Runoffs, come by and get probed

Dave

Attached Files

•  alienra.jpg   57.57KB   11 downloads

[Flyntgr]

Davew, this was not a case of someone not believing you. It was a case of someone not knowing enough to apply YOUR knowledge. I don't know what you know, and you don't know what I know. I have a field of expertise, and a doctorate in that field, which I fully understand. I could explain a complex matter in my field in simple terms, which others in my field would immediatedly grasp, but most laypersons would not fully understand what I explained, nor how to apply what I explained. That does not make them stupid or unwilling, but merely uneducated in my field of expertise. Nobody knows what they don't know. The GCR is pretty thick: about an inch and a half. Most new drivers don't learn all the rules in a year or two. I certainly haven't, though learning complicated rules (in another field) goes with my line of work. But I strive to comply to the GCR in every way. That's why I ask the experts who do know what I don't know. I try to follow their advice and usually do pretty well, but this was way over my head.

On the other hand, I do appreciate your knowledge, time and effort, as well as that of the other guys who have posted.

I know the concept of being responsible. I have successfully discharged the responsibility of protecting a number of lives while others were actively, persistently trying to kill them. They are all still alive.

I also am responsible for my car being legal-not anyone else. Did you notice that I have already ordered the necessary cam to fix the illegal "fix", and have already scheduled the work? When I talked to my alignment man I took full responsibility for allowing him to make an incorrect fix. It was my fault and I will pay the price of getting it right.

If this doesn't explain things, please send me a p.m.

I do hope to meet you, to thank you personally. I have a lot to learn, if I live long enough. I wonder if I ever will....

[Jim Boemler]

Sounds like you've got a great attitude about this, Flyntgr -- that's half the battle. One of the things that comes with experience is knowing how close is "close enough". While you seem to think of your car as desperately in need of adjustment, from the numbers you've shown your car is already aligned better -- in terms or precision, not necessarily optimum values -- than 90% of the field.

I'd suggest not trying to "doctor" the car for now, just go drive it. No new driver believes it, but it's usually quite a while before their driving is capable of finding flaws in the car.

[dmathias]

I'm gonna take a WAG here - Flying Tiger's alignment man, mechanic and machinist all serve on a base.

[Jim Boemler]

One explanation. I figured since he wanted to hustle, he was related to Larry.

[Flyntgr]

I'm gonna take a WAG here - Flying Tiger's alignment man, mechanic and machinist all serve on a base.

That's WAY off base! LOL. They are what they appear to be. Not racing oriented, but the best body man and the best alignment man in south central Louisiana. The alignment/machinist is ONE man. The Body man is another. Both are used by excellent counterparts who can't solve a problem in their respective arenas. The cam fix works like a charm, but it isn't legal-which I didn't know, and neither did he. So, I will move back to less camber and be legal with a new cam. There's no conspiracy or mystery here.

[Alberto]

Echoing what Dave said, do make an effort to find yourself the local SM race shop or at least a regular race shop that has been in the business of building and maintaining race cars for a while. It will save you money to have a knowledgeable go-to shop.

Regular alignment shops and Hunter machines are usually not good enough for a race car. Their machines are typically not calibrated with enough regularity to ensure accuracy and the person doing the alignment is generally not attentive enough to get measurements where you want them on a race car - or track car for that matter.

You may want to go into your user profile and update your location so some locals can help you out with resources. I have gotten many money saving tips and advice from local guys on this forum.

[davew]

<<<So, I will move back to less camber and be legal with a new cam. >>>

And this one sentance validates my point. If you had more knowledge/experience in this field (Spec Miata) or took the car to someone who does, you would not be settling for less than optimal readings. Or having to defending yourself in any way.

One of the beauties of SM is that virtually every problem has happened to someone else before you.

Post your allignment settings, ride heights and corner weights and we (the mazdaracers website community) will be happy to figure out the real reason why you can not get the readings you want

Dave

[chris haldeman]

[Tom Hampton]

Dave w. You have a pm.

Jim b. So do you.

The pm. System doesn't seem to be emailing anymore.