603 replies to this topic

[Jim Boemler]

For a dyno "number", start by averaging all the competitors on a given day, then allow a fixed percentage of variation. If you're over the average plus variation number, penalty applies. BTW, DQ isn't the only possible penalty.

[Tom Sager]

I guess which end of the scale you were on The Low number was a FRESH motor without much tune, tire pressures NOT set and in need of new plugs and the high was 2/3 points better than the average of the other 3/4. The Low number car finished mid pack and the upper number car was top 5. Did I say they were all the same model year? This info was a 1 time only opportunity that NEVER was repeated, so what was done after that test is purely speculation. Mike posted his numbers and he ran P-7 so what do the numbers mean?

As someone who was there, I would add the following...

Did some cars have their fuel pressure adjusted better for the current conditions better than others? Do some tune for best peak HP while others tune for more mid-range torque? Do some adjust their A/F every session based on weather while some only set it once a day or once an event? The first cars went onto the dyno very shortly after coming off the track, the last couple cars were run about an hour after the first cars. Was the water temp on each of the cars equalized? No. Could any of the cars making a little less power be brought up to the higher powered cars with equalized temps and tuning methods? Only 3 pulls were done. It was probably a useful excercise but I wouldn't call it scientific.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

All I can say is something has to be done or I won,t be running any Nat.in 2012. I've been running the same car for 4 years now against the same guy's.Now some of those guy's bought 99's and I can't even keep up with them anymore,and I have been getting faster every year.I think the class is dieing fast because of the 20-30 k 99's.If you want this to be fair you need to have 3-5 top drivers with all 3 top prep gen sm's on the same day and track and adjust weight and plates at that time RA would be fine for the test.NO one on the board and no one who sells pro sms should be driveing or has input at that time,just watching and taking notes,and you have to take the average over at least 20 laps per Gen. to adjust the weights and plates not just the fastest laps.

PS last year and the year before the worst I finished was 4th racing in the Nationals !

[Caveman-kwebb99]

All I can say is something has to be done or I won,t be running any Nat.in 2012. I've been running the same car for 4 years now against the same guy's.Now some of those guy's bought 99's and I can't even keep up with them anymore,and I have been getting faster every year.I think the class is dieing fast because of the 20-30 k 99's.If you want this to be fair you need to have 3-5 top drivers with all 3 top prep gen sm's on the same day and track and adjust weight and plates at that time RA would be fine for the test.NO one on the board and no one who sells pro sms should be driver or has input at that time,just watching and taking notes.

PS last year and the year before the worst I finished was 4th racing in the Nationals !

Kuch, I enjoy racing with you, more than you know even though I give you a hard time sometimes. Did a new car help me this year certainly. But the biggest change was my driving improved immensly. I have run the nationals at mid oh, i did put it on the pole by the slimist of margins and one of the races was won by a 1.6 Rugerio. The other won by Bednarz in his 99. John Shueing was also right there in his 97. all the models at mid ohio have parity for sure. I for one hope you dont quite, but I understand more than most that to run up front it does take some dough. I know you are a budget guy and I have lots of respect for how well you come out and run twice a year with us on that budget. There is also a bit more competition showing up at Mid Ohio in SCCA this year over last year as well. I have brought a few of the NASA boys out through word of mouth, they have enjoyed it like I did and plan to come back for more. That also contributed to the tougher competition at Mid Ohio for sure. PS, remove the thumping stereo from your can and you will go faster. LOL hope to see you and your brother racing more in 2012!

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Kuch, I enjoy racing with you, more than you know even though I give you a hard time sometimes. Did a new car help me this year certainly. But the biggest change was my driving improved immensly. I have run the nationals at mid oh, i did put it on the pole by the slimist of margins and one of the races was won by a 1.6 Rugerio. The other won by Bednarz in his 99. John Shueing was also right there in his 97. all the models at mid ohio have parity for sure. I for one hope you dont quite, but I understand more than most that to run up front it does take some dough. I know you are a budget guy and I have lots of respect for how well you come out and run twice a year with us on that budget. There is also a bit more competition showing up at Mid Ohio in SCCA this year over last year as well. I have brought a few of the NASA boys out through word of mouth, they have enjoyed it like I did and plan to come back for more. That also contributed to the tougher competition at Mid Ohio for sure. PS, remove the thumping stereo from your can and you will go faster. LOL hope to see you and your brother racing more in 2012!

Kyle,let me start by saying it's always a great time racing with you and everyone else.I have a blast and I'm all about the fun (ball busting)!

Earlier in the year I got to run my car and a 99 on to different days and two different tracks (same prep on both cars).One day at Mid-O and one day at Nelson Ledges,at Mid-O I was 1.4 sec. faster in the 99 and Nelson I was 1.2 sec. faster.

Yes I am a budget racer and I'm not affraid to say it ,but isn't that what this class is for?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Kyle,let me start by saying it's always a great time racing with you and everyone else.I have a blast and I'm all about the fun (ball busting)!

Earlier in the year I got to run my car and a 99 on to different days and two different tracks (same prep on both cars).One day at Mid-O and one day at Nelson Ledges,at Mid-O I was 1.4 sec. faster in the 99 and Nelson I was 1.2 sec. faster.

Yes I am a budget racer and I'm not affraid to say it ,but isn't that what this class is for?

Kuch, the problem is everyone's budget is different. You cant stop those that have from spending money they want to spend, including me. I am not the top dollar racer, but I am not the smallest budget either. I am totaly suprised that you are that much faster in the 99 myself as I always thought you were real fast in the the 1.6. I have not drivent the 1.6 but I have driven the 97 which is a missle but it is harder to drive on the edge lap after lap than the 99, at least for me at my experience level. So what you have learned this year is to give your brother some sleeping pills right before the race and then when he goes to sleep take his 99 and run it for the race LOL. I plan on still running all the regionals I can at Mid Ohio in between the nationals schedule I plan to run. There is plenty of competition at a regional Mid Ohio, with Guthrie, Deerwester, Rugerio, Boehly, Jet, and others that show up. I am sure I will run into you at some of those races and I look forward to it.

[AJ Roderick]

Kyle,let me start by saying it's always a great time racing with you and everyone else.I have a blast and I'm all about the fun (ball busting)!

Earlier in the year I got to run my car and a 99 on to different days and two different tracks (same prep on both cars).One day at Mid-O and one day at Nelson Ledges,at Mid-O I was 1.4 sec. faster in the 99 and Nelson I was 1.2 sec. faster.

Yes I am a budget racer and I'm not affraid to say it ,but isn't that what this class is for?

The fact anyone lets you drive their car at Nelson Ledges amazes me

[Caveman-kwebb99]

The fact anyone lets you drive their car at Nelson Ledges amazes me

The fact that anyone still drives their own car at that place is what actually amazes me. ROFLMAO

[AJ Roderick]

The fact that anyone still drives their own car at that place is what actually amazes me. ROFLMAO

thats why i said you could drop yours off

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

The fact anyone lets you drive their car at Nelson Ledges amazes me

I aint scared !

[dmathias]

Let's review;

Entry level class, says so right in the intent statement of the specs. No longer true.

Does anyone else look at the national results entry numbers in the back of SportsCar? Pretty dismal, and IMO directly related to cost to compete.

There are plenty of "spend all you want classes" - have at if you've got money burning a hole in your pocket.

I personally have spoken with several people who quit who have said it's because the class has passed them by, not because they lost interest.

A limit cannot be set on spending - but we could certainly diminish the return on investment.

[Gatoratty]

I have to call BS on this no longer being an entry level class. Come down to Florida and you will see plenty of new racers in our class. SM like SRF or any other class isn't cheap if you want to be consistently in the top 5 with the best prepped car (driver prep is a different issue). There are plenty of $7000-12,000 cars available to start racing in our class. Just as it has been for years you will have someone to race with regardless of how much you spend.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I have to call BS on this no longer being an entry level class. Come down to Florida and you will see plenty of new racers in our class. SM like SRF or any other class isn't cheap if you want to be consistently in the top 5 with the best prepped car (driver prep is a different issue). There are plenty of $7000-12,000 cars available to start racing in our class. Just as it has been for years you will have someone to race with regardless of how much you spend.

+1,000,000

and a comment on Matthias' post. It already is a diminishing return. I have never won anything of monitary value in an SCCA race. And even if I won tires every time I raced it would still pale in comparison to what it costs to prep a car, travel, and race for a weekend.

[Blake Thompson]

I love how we let a 45 minute race once a year dictate our entire season and lives! the last two posters are dead on. Any entry level class WONT be entry level at the runoffs. That's kind of the point, isn't it?

[FTodaro]

I would add that SM is entry level because you do not have to be a rocket scientist to work on the car, parts are cheap, and if you want to put the time in on prepping the car you can do it in your own garage, if you have some skill, it can be done on the cheap.

You just have to go race another series to see this clearly. I was considering earlier this year to go racing American Iron next year and start building a Stang for the job. but when I started looking at the build numbers, the maintenance costs on the car and the cost of the motor, as well as the size of the average field in AM, I soon concluded, why do I want to spend more to race with less racers. This is the ticket for me.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

All I have to say is that their wasn't this much complaining before the 99s were let into the class. All I would like to see is all the cars to be equal at a national level.we used to have plenty of cars to race with up here the most I have seen this year at a National event was 12 cars.I remember when it was normal to see at least 25 to 30.Why is that ?

I understand you can't stop someone from spending money on there car but were will it end? At the rate we are going in 2 years there will be 10 to 15 cars at the run offs .I don't know about you but I like to race with other cars not by myself.

Like I said make them equal at a National level and I would be happy,Regional is a diff.story!

[dmathias]

you will have someone to race with regardless of how much you spend

As someone who perpetually races in the kill zone, it's not as much fun as some will have you believe.

I have never won anything of monitary value in an SCCA race.

I'm not talking about prizes Kyle, what I meant is we could make the rules such that if someone wants to spend with no limit, it will not substantially raise HP or lower lap time. I think that limit already exist, it's just a lot more $$$ than some of us think it should be.

PS. 'Matthias' is the Biblical spelling.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

As someone who perpetually races in the kill zone, it's not as much fun as some will have you believe.



I'm not talking about prizes Kyle, what I meant is we could make the rules such that if someone wants to spend with no limit, it will not substantially raise HP or lower lap time. I think that limit already exist, it's just a lot more $$$ than some of us think it should be.

PS. 'Matthias' is the Biblical spelling.

You might find this strange mister St. Matthias LOL I will go right ahead and agree with you on both points. The problem you have with the word (some) is that some don't agree that the $$$ are to much I am in that category, or I would stop my spending. I dont spend more than I want to on any of this stuff. there is always a cheaper and often times slower option available. you would litterly have to make a $$ limit to the class and then be able to enforce it which is impossible.

[Tom Sager]

Would like to share a story and I don't think the actors will mind it posted here. David Tesch is the brother of Mike Tesch who mantains my car. David bought a very cheap, old 1.6 SM a couple years ago and raced it several times in '09 and '10. He was mid-pack at regional races in toward the back of the pack at the few nationals that he entered. Middle of last year he was quite frustrated. At a test day I got in his car and drove it for 2 laps. I pulled into the pits and told him the car was not good. It had some very quirky handling traits and the power was so-so. His brother Mike took the car to his shop. He diassembled the suspension and checked everyting closely and found some bugs and parts that needed to be swapped. Fast forward to this year, David invested in a motor built by a good local area engine builder. The engine builder read our rules and built to those specs taking advantage of what could be done with the cylinder head and doing an otherwise careful build. The car was tuned as per our rules. At a National at Road America in July, David was much faster than in the past but his race was cut short due to an incident on the track with a car in another class. A couple weeks ago he went to a test day at Blackhawk before the last SCCA regional event there. He worked on his driving and throughout the day he and Mike made adjustments to the car. He ran the regional event that followed the next couple days and won his first ever SM race. Not bad. Congratulaions to him.

The point here is that he brought his program up to a competitive level without investing a ton of money. He did it by simply correcting what was needed to the car and working a bit on his driving.

[Blake Thompson]

All I have to say is that their wasn't this much complaining before the 99s were let into the class.

omg, yes there was. 95 vs 96 vs 97 took up reems before the 99 was allowed. It's all about the perceived disadvantage.