603 replies to this topic

[Blake Thompson]

at a National event was 12 cars.I remember when it was normal to see at least 25 to 30.Why is that ?

Have you forgotten, cousin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession

[Caveman-kwebb99]

As someone who perpetually races in the kill zone, it's not as much fun as some will have you believe.



I'm not talking about prizes Kyle, what I meant is we could make the rules such that if someone wants to spend with no limit, it will not substantially raise HP or lower lap time. I think that limit already exist, it's just a lot more $$$ than some of us think it should be.

PS. 'Matthias' is the Biblical spelling.

Denny I am sure there are those in GL's that are front runners, that you would trust to drive your car in a practice session. I think Sager has a great idea for you, and if you can get data on you and your guest driver both, you will be able to tell right there if it's the money, or the driving. I am happy to drive your car and provide data although you might not trust me to do so. I am sure Guthrie would probably help you with that as well. You guys can borrow my traqmate if you would like.

[Blake Thompson]

The point here is that he brought his program up to a competitive level without investing a ton of money. He did it by simply correcting what was needed to the car and working a bit on his driving.

I just met David this summer. He's a hungry dude.

Last summer my girl was bitching about the motor in her car. I did a leakdown and it was coughing a bit, lots of blow by. I took her car out on a test day and knocked 2 seconds off her time in 5 laps. I am not a fantastic driver, but told her we'd fix the motor when either it explodes or she can match my times.

Ummmmm she outqualified me this weekend Gonna be an expensive winter!

[Zauskycop]

I just met David this summer. He's a hungry dude.

Last summer my girl was bitching about the motor in her car. I did a leakdown and it was coughing a bit, lots of blow by. I took her car out on a test day and knocked 2 seconds off her time in 5 laps. I am not a fantastic driver, but told her we'd fix the motor when either it explodes or she can match my times.

Ummmmm she outqualified me this weekend Gonna be an expensive winter!

Hey Blake...make me the same deal please ;-) ???

[James York]

All I have to say is that their wasn't this much complaining before the 99s were let into the class. All I would like to see is all the cars to be equal at a national level.we used to have plenty of cars to race with up here the most I have seen this year at a National event was 12 cars.I remember when it was normal to see at least 25 to 30.Why is that ?

I understand you can't stop someone from spending money on there car but were will it end? At the rate we are going in 2 years there will be 10 to 15 cars at the run offs .I don't know about you but I like to race with other cars not by myself.

Like I said make them equal at a National level and I would be happy,Regional is a diff.story!

Here is the number of SM participants in the Runoffs since the class went national. Note, the 99 has been allowed in national racing in SM since day 1. Number of starters listed on the grid sheets

2006=48
2007=39
2008=28
2009=38
2010=63
2011=34

I guess I don't see the same trend happening that you forecast. Take out a couple of bubbles in there, 2006 first Runoffs for SM (excitement), 2010 (almost anyone can go) and the trend is pretty flat. Probably more influenced by venue excitement and economy.

Now if you are comparing race attendence before SM went national to after it did so, I think that is a factor that racers now became serious, regardless of car balance. That most likely turned off some of the drivers that justed were wanting to have fun when big boys (and budgets) started entering races. 99's had nothing to do with that.

SM racing today is a result of its success as a class. Close, intense racing where folks like to seriously compete. That is a result of national racing in my opinion, you have to pay to play (at the front).

[Blake Thompson]

Hey Blake...make me the same deal please ;-) ???

I don't think you will like the exchange.

[Waterboy]

The kill zone is the kill zone because usually the car is faster than the driver.

[dmathias]

Well, There we have it. There are no problems with the class. Why did this thread start again?

[JBlaisdell]

This last years SCCA totals:
72 Total National Races
1283 SM Entries
17.8 Ave. Entries per race

The Southeast leads with 320 entries from 10 races...ave. 32 drivers per race
The Midwest had the least with 30 entries from 7 races...ave. 4.3 drivers per race.

Just some facts...not trying to draw any conclussions...but I'm sure some here will!?!

Got to think...it completely reminds me of Jim D.'s Bennett quote: " Besides you and me and 20-30 other a$$holes, no one cares....etc.

[Jim Drago]

Also the #1 SCCA class in terms of participation, but who is counting... Not to say we don't have some issues and can't make the class even better.

[Bench Racer]

Would like to share a story and I don't think the actors will mind it posted here. He )David Tesch) ran the regional event that followed the next couple days and won his first ever SM race. Not bad. Congratulaions to him.

The point here is that he brought his program up to a competitive level without investing a ton of money. He did it by simply correcting what was needed to the car and working a bit on his driving.

Another point for David, he ran ITA with said car finishing second to a SMT first & a SMT third while turning laps within .2 of said cars.

In the SM race later in the day that David won & the top three cars turned laps within .2 of each other.

Other random subjects:

A.

In year 2005 there were 76 SM entered for the the Milwaukee Cup at the CAT national at Road America.

In year 2006 there were 60 some SM entered for the the Milwaukee Cup at the CAT national at Road America.

In years 2007 & beyond the SM numbers for the the National class at the CAT national at Road America have fallen through the floor.

B.

When we look at the costs of a SM there are a few basic $ items to look at that get us to a $30 to $40,000.00 car. The largest $ item is LABOR to get to the $40,000.00. Yay or nay professional car builders.

C.

IMHJ the Ruoffs will remain at locations where SCCA demographics show they should be.

D.

IMHJ the Runoffs will never change location by the year. MANY tracks do not have the paddock area for 500-600 competitors with cars/haulers/coaches. MANY tracks do not need the SCCA to fill their track time.

E.

After the latest parity gadget games with weights & plates I would hope the weights are frozen for ever & the plates are the only gadget used in the future for parity.

F. IMHJ the motor/suspension swaps should never again be proposed or changed. They were made a dead issue & they should stay a dead issue.

G. To those that blow smoke abouttheir 1.6's that can get the job don at Road America, bring em on, some have tryed & naver returned. They bring bid daddy after a 1.6 lession.

H. MOST of all quit dreaming of splitting any of the spec lines from Spec Miata.

[Charlie Hayes]

Exact on the money for the 30-40k cars. Big guys try stuff, which takes time, which is money.

[naparsei]

Would like to share a story and I don't think the actors will mind it posted here. David Tesch is the brother of Mike Tesch who mantains my car. David bought a very cheap, old 1.6 SM a couple years ago and raced it several times in '09 and '10. He was mid-pack at regional races in toward the back of the pack at the few nationals that he entered. Middle of last year he was quite frustrated. At a test day I got in his car and drove it for 2 laps. I pulled into the pits and told him the car was not good. It had some very quirky handling traits and the power was so-so. His brother Mike took the car to his shop. He diassembled the suspension and checked everyting closely and found some bugs and parts that needed to be swapped. Fast forward to this year, David invested in a motor built by a good local area engine builder. The engine builder read our rules and built to those specs taking advantage of what could be done with the cylinder head and doing an otherwise careful build. The car was tuned as per our rules. At a National at Road America in July, David was much faster than in the past but his race was cut short due to an incident on the track with a car in another class. A couple weeks ago he went to a test day at Blackhawk before the last SCCA regional event there. He worked on his driving and throughout the day he and Mike made adjustments to the car. He ran the regional event that followed the next couple days and won his first ever SM race. Not bad. Congratulaions to him.

The point here is that he brought his program up to a competitive level without investing a ton of money. He did it by simply correcting what was needed to the car and working a bit on his driving.

First of all - what a great story. I wish it would happen to me. This is one of the big reasons why we race.

However - and I think I generally agree with your direction - this isn't a great example. I mean, he had an entry level car which wasn't competitive. He got frustrated. He got a built motor (maybe not top shelf, but still - a built motor) and a refresh by a pro (that he didn't have to pay, probably) for his suspension, etc. Then he won. It would have been more money for almost anyone else. It's great it's not a $30K car, but that wouldn't be cheap.

It would great if the cars were equal, but they never will be. It doesn't matter what series you are in. My best friend likes driving at the indoor rental kart places. He goes in, throws down a session which is usually close enough to the quickest time of the day/week/month, and then says - "Can I have the fast kart?" for his next session. We are usually talking 27-35 second laps, and he cuts another .5 off. The karts are "spec", but there's always a fast one.

[Tom Sager]

First of all - what a great story. I wish it would happen to me. This is one of the big reasons why we race.

However - and I think I generally agree with your direction - this isn't a great example. I mean, he had an entry level car which wasn't competitive. He got frustrated. He got a built motor (maybe not top shelf, but still - a built motor) and a refresh by a pro (that he didn't have to pay, probably) for his suspension, etc. Then he won. It would have been more money for almost anyone else. It's great it's not a $30K car, but that wouldn't be cheap.

It would great if the cars were equal, but they never will be. It doesn't matter what series you are in. My best friend likes driving at the indoor rental kart places. He goes in, throws down a session which is usually close enough to the quickest time of the day/week/month, and then says - "Can I have the fast kart?" for his next session. We are usually talking 27-35 second laps, and he cuts another .5 off. The karts are "spec", but there's always a fast one.

There has been a lot of talk about motors in this thread so one more comment on that....

To me a "built motor" is the least expensive. Now I know people can get just a head prepped or use a junkyard motor or do a minor refresh and the initial out of pocket expense is lower. In the long run, I think that ends up being more expensive. At some point, the old parts of the assembly will wear or fail meaning you have to again "fix" what is wrong or is causng performance to drop. That's likely a much shorter interval than on a full rebuild.

A full rebuild (assuming one owns a rebuildable motor) should be do-able with a good engine builder for about $4000. I think that rebuilt motor (with one head refresh after 2 seasons) should last for 4 seasons. If you spend $1000 for that head refresh, then your per season cost for a good motor is about $1250. I realize some may not have the budget to make the initial investment in the motor and that some that don't work on the car themselves will have some labor costs beyond this, but I think most would agree that it's cheaper over the long haul and more satisfying to do the bigger things right once.

If you want the most from your motor you'll have to go to the dyno with some expertise and that will be an added expense, but I really believe you can get yourself "in the hunt" power-wise, longevity-wise and expense-wise at these numbers. So given this, in what other class can you fund a motor program at these numbers? Not many if any.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

This is what I think a spec class should be,

1) buy a used car
2)put a cage in it
3)add suspension kit
4) rebuild engine with factory parts no tweaking
5)add wheels
6) setup suspension
7) install safety. Equipment
8) go racing and be able to run in the top five at any track
9) you should be able to this in any gen car

I know there is more to do but you get the point!

[Blake Thompson]

Unlike what we're teaching Gen Y, we can't all be first and we're not all equal. You are not a unique snowflake.

[Jim Drago]

This is what I think a spec class should be,

1) buy a used car
2)put a cage in it
3)add suspension kit
4) rebuild engine with factory parts no tweaking
5)add wheels
6) setup suspension
7) install safety. Equipment
8) go racing and be able to run in the top five at any track
9) you should be able to this in any gen car

I know there is more to do but you get the point!

Add: set your car up properly
Add: tune your car properly
Add: keep decent tires on your car

and that is what we have now

[Jim Boemler]

It doesn't feel that way, Jim. We've got an awful lot of folks spending WAY more money than that list implies, and just coincidentally they seem to be crowded towards the front of every pack.

[Jim Drago]

I think that is just it Jim, you can do that inexpensively or as expensively as you see fit.



1) buy a used car
You going to buy one of the nicest donors or one of the cheapest? My advice buy the best donor you can find, you can change everything else about the car, you start with a ratty car, you will spend more money on every step along the way.

2)put a cage in it
Auto power? bolt in? custom tig welded cage? The price can be 2-3x different. Cages are very personal, again, cage is one thing you can't change realistically.

Are we going to paint this car after we put in cage? Spray can? Maaco? $2500-3000 paint job and graphics package?

3)add suspension kit
Are we adding new bushing? Are we adding new subframes? Control arms? Steering rack? Do you have a comp or torsen diff? Do you need to build diff? Are you going to take out your diff and set it up or just assume it is right? New brake calipers? new hubs? brake lines? Mater cyl? Clutch slave?


4) rebuild engine with factory parts no tweaking
Ok, are we having Napa do this? Are you using a Sm pro builder? Are you changing all the parts in the engine? just some?
Are we flowing any of the intakes and exhaust manifolds? Heads?

What about trans? are we leaving that 100 k unit in there that grinds going into third every shift? Rebuilt? new?


5)add wheels
4 wheels? 8? 16? rains?

6) setup suspension
do you ave scales? knowledge? are we paying someone to do this?

7) install safety. Equipment
How much safety? How much on belts? $300 seat or $2500 seat? Side nets? Halo? fire system or extinguisher?

8) go racing and be able to run in the top five at any track
I think that is something that requires data? Are we putting in data? what about a wide ban, especially in a1.6?
Are we ever going to check toe at track? Scale at track or set and forget?



Looking at a few things, you can see how quickly you can knock $10,000-$15000 off this build or add it real fast, depending on what you want.

[Jim Boemler]

I never questioned that you can spend more money; certainly true. The point is that particularly on #4, money translates directly into finishing positions. That's the crux of most of the posts here -- a desire to make finishing positions less "bought". Buying positions isn't new of course, but even F1 is running themselves broke doing it. We don't need to let ourselves go that far before we rein it in.