603 replies to this topic

[Blake Thompson]

I never questioned that you can spend more money; certainly true. The point is that particularly on #4, money translates directly into finishing positions. That's the crux of most of the posts here -- a desire to make finishing positions less "bought". Buying positions isn't new of course, but even F1 is running themselves broke doing it. We don't need to let ourselves go that far before we rein it in.

lol, money doesn't translate into positions, but lack of sure does...

a lot of folks may want to checkout LeMons... it fits a lot of what people are asking for here.

[Jim Boemler]

lol, money doesn't translate into positions, but lack of sure does...

The phrase you're looking for is "Let them eat cake."

[Keith Novak]

For an "entry level" class though, it's the perspective that it's all about finishing position and the necessity for all the money to get there that sours peoples' views. I've seen pour money in the car and get discouraged when it didn't launch them to the podium, then discount a day when some instruction made them 2 seconds faster and they eventually quit.

I started out slow and was discouraged at times. I put a pro motor in the car and it made me a little faster but at 5+ seconds off the pace it was really a waste of money. I kept tweaking the car expecting to find some magic cure to why I was slow. When I installed data I found that sometimes I drove pretty fast but lacked in consistency and couldn't put a fast lap together so I worked on that. After some pointers by a fast driver on how to drive a Miata, I crushed my best time with that pro motor using a motor that burned almost as much oil as gas. You couldn't wipe the smile off my face for a week.

This year, lacking experience I forgot what I was doing right and got slower. I put a crate in the car and focused on racing as much as I could and when I'd get separated and found myself driving alone, I'd work on improving my skills instead of getting frustrated. I also improved my program a lot in the sense that I could reliably race double doubles and a triple reliably through the whole second half of the season. I got into great races with people driving faster cars and improved my racecraft. I have to focus on not screwing up and picking my opportunities to pass against faster cars. Often I can't and when I lose the draft I might get left so if I do, I go back to working on the skills. Sometimes it clicks and my little stocker crate beats the best cars in the region rented by drivers about my ability and we're all raving about how much fun it was going at it for 30 mins after it's over.

I want to get faster and find myself racing at the front. I bought my own scales and learned to use them so I can work on my setup without breaking the bank. I will improve my car more this year, but more importantly I'd rather put a faster driver in the car. I'm able to drive within about 2 1/2 seconds from the front consistently and one corner that still scares me after a crash costs me about a second so when I can sort that out, I'm in pretty good company. That's with a crate that's never seen a dyno and I know other things to work on too. I'm anything but discouraged despite not having a $30k car.

[Bench Racer]

We all know what is ment by seat time. That would be preping the driver.

The driver has a newly built car. Oh, a 1.6.

The driver hasn't raced since a 2006 double regional in a rental car, his only car time that year.

He did two track days this year. The driver thought during the first track day, do I want to reconnect the hands, eyes, A$$ & the brain. During the second track day, things started connecting much better.

He did one regional race weekend this year racing in SMT & SM. The car is talking to the driver, the driver is starting to feel the car talk better during each session, the driver is feeding the car during each session & removing the car's ills before the next session.

This same weekend the driver identified (without recorded data) where he needed to improve driving skills & to reduce lap times.

Don't matter none if you haven't driven for almost 6 years or if you've driven 6 times a year ya might request the driver for feed back. What's the car doing, what's the driver ontrack feeling/thinking/doing.

Ya can spend whatever you care to on a car, if you don't groom the driver, advancement to the pointy end is hopeless..

[Danny Steyn]

IMHO the best way to move up the field is with a LOT of seat time, good data system, access to faster lap times on the same data system, and many, many hours comparing data (and video if you have it). If you cannot do what the reference guy is doing in the corners in terms of mid corner speed and exit speed, adjust your setup. Never do two sessions back to back without making adjustments.

Sure good car prep, good setup and good motors will help, but in my case it was about understanding what I was doing wrong, and what I needed to do to fix it, and improve my times.

[Jim Drago]

One setup problem that comes up a lot with guys as they gain experience.

Many guys start to understand suspension changes, they go fro never touching he perches for 1-2 seasons to changing every session. They start to make too many changes, change too soon, chase changing track conditions and never find there way. This is as bad or worse than leaving you car with a neutral setup IMO. My un written rule is to set the car up appropriately before I leave for the track. I never make adjustments after the first session, I make mental notes. If the car does the same thing or same tendencies, I adjust after second session.

[dmathias]

1) buy a used car
2)put a cage in it
3)add suspension kit
4) rebuild engine with factory parts no tweaking
5)add wheels
6) setup suspension
7) install safety. Equipment
8) go racing and be able to run in the top five at any track
9) you should be able to this in any gen car

I know there is more to do but you get the point!

Add: set your car up properly
Add: tune your car properly
Add: keep decent tires on your car

and that is what we have now

1 - 9 is precisely how this class was sold when it begin.

#4 is where I think this SM runs into trouble. Builders are doing something to justify a $7,000 4-banger. The concept of "tech-shed legal" is at the root of the problem. Mysterious machine work, special coatings, re-mapped electronics, and whatever super-secret cheats separate the few (in the know)haves from the rest of us poor have-nots.

Tires is it's own issue for me, and obviously not an SM related problem. I don't know what I'm going to do next year with the Hoosier's longevity - probably run even less events than I did this year. (Wait for it . . . . waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!)

[davew]

Many years ago when I first started racing, I had an ITB Mustang. Went through school, learned a lot and decided I should go faster, so I spent a bunch of money and converted to GT3. Slicks, cam, 200 pounds lighter. Went the same speed???? After a few races I let a buddy of mine drive the car. His first timed lap was 3 seconds faster than me !!!!!!!! After the 15 minute session he was 5 seconds faster than me. I guess the problem was not the car. When my session came up, I ended up 4 seconds faster than I had ever gone, within 1 second of my buddy. He never drove the car again, but I ended the day 2 seconds faster than him. That's 7 seconds faster over the course of a single day. No changes to the car.

About 5 years ago, I built a NASCAR Busch series car for road racing. Blew the motor in qualifying and never drove the car again. One of my other buddies offered me his Miata for the ITA race. He ran the SM race and won. I managed to end up second, but he was 1.5 seconds faster than me. Later that summer his car broke and I returned the favor. In my car he was also 1.5 seconds faster than me.

3 years ago Voytek Burdzy won the National race at Gingerman by a straight away. The car had never been on a dyno and I new nothing about engine tuning. We loaded after the race and went directly to Indy, for a dyno session with Jim Stewart. We started with 108 hp. We definately did not win that race by overpowering anybody.

Tom Brown purchased his green car this winter from one of the local guys. The previous owner kept great notes, but always played with the setup. More this, less that almost evry session. I beleave he finished around 30th at last years runoffs. With a basic setup and steady driving, Tom finished 10th on the track, 8th after tech at this years Runoffs while running with the likes of Steyn for a lot of the race. Same motor, same shocks, different driver.

What I am trying to say is that this is still a drivers class. Give the car good basic prep and a decent setup and you can run pretty darn fast. Yes, egos and walletts have driven prices toooo high. But don't let your ego get in the way of learning how to race. In 99% of the cases, the car is still faster than the driver.

My advise to any driver who wants to go faster:

Make sure the car is dead nuts reliable
Have a decent baseline setup in the car.
Don't use take off 3 year old tires. Used tires are ok, just not junk.
Get a lap timer, data is better if used properly. But I really like instant feedback
Make friends with a fast guy. Then ask him to follow you for 1/2 a session.
Then listen to what he says you need to improve on.
Follow the fast guy, learn what he does different from you.
Don't tweek the car untill you can get close to the front
Spend money wisely. Use an experienced SM shop for an allignment, spend a few bucks on dyno time.
Do not waste money. A huge data system like Danny's will do you no good, if you don't know how to use it. The extra 5hp of a pro motor will not get you 3 seconds faster. But $5000 of coaching and entry fees just may.

SM is still a great class and the best thing out there. It has come a long way since humble beginnings 10 years ago. But it is still a drivers class. Some drivers may out spend others, but that is racing. And there is no part you can buy (legal part that is) that will move you from midpack to the front. The hardest part on the car to adjust is the nut behind the steering wheel.

Remember, Racing is Supposed to be FUN

Dave

[Chris70]

Best post in this tread , too many people over think the car and forget the driver, the biggest variable.
And as for parity and rules changes all the time we have to stop trying to make it to the lowest common denominator, one cant just buy a cheap car , not develop it, dont try to develop as a driver and then cry wolf and try to bring the front guys down to their level or accuse them of cheating.
Every time I had a driver complaint about a car we worked on we just plug Elivan in it for a few laps and the complaints end right there, all the way back to the go kart days.
Russia eliminated the rich to favor the poor and we all know how that turned out.Don't try to slow the fast ones, speed up the slow ones. :-)
Ademir

[FTodaro]

IMHO the best way to move up the field is with a LOT of seat time, good data system, access to faster lap times on the same data system, and many, many hours comparing data (and video if you have it). If you cannot do what the reference guy is doing in the corners in terms of mid corner speed and exit speed, adjust your setup. Never do two sessions back to back without making adjustments.

Sure good car prep, good setup and good motors will help, but in my case it was about understanding what I was doing wrong, and what I needed to do to fix it, and improve my times.

Bingo Danny, folks are complaining because they feel they cannot be competitive without spending gobs of Money. I suggest that they are leaving time on the table due to the lack of focus on there driving. Its easy to say well he is faster than me because he has a big buck motor. Its more likely that the other driver is faster for several reasons. One of them is that you may not be getting the most out of what you do have.

In my mind step one is Data. I was fortunate to have a good friend share his data with me this year and went from out of the top ten to top 5 and a podium. Never made any drive train changes just set up tweaks based upon track conditions.

Regarding the posts above about getting a car and show up to me in the top 5. I am glad that if you are willing to put in the extra effort to prep the car, it shows up on the track. Some people have to pay for this prep, others like me get get the satisfaction of doing it myself. Its part of the attraction of the class. if we were to show up in exact duplicate cars, yes, it would be the true test of our skills, but I like the test of my other skills too, such as car set up, and understanding changing track conditions and what to do about it. So thank goodness we will never get total parity on that.

I do not think the discussion should focus on stopping the spending, you cannot control peoples passion for being competitive and some who have the ability so spend the money to get it. You can get to the same place by working harder and doing it yourself.

We can however enforce the rules so that no matter what you spend your going to bump up against the performance limits of the class.

[Jim Drago]

I think people are on both sides of the "truth" here...

Some facts...

There is no pro driver in the world who is showing up in a car that at say 70-75% prep or less and winning any competitive SM race in the country, just not possible.

There is also no driver who is at 75-85% ability level of the top guys who could jump in any car on the grid and win any competitive SM race.

There are guys out there in SM that have more talent than some of the guys winning, but will never win themselves less a better car.

If your car is down more than 5 HP( 3 is tough IMO) to the perceived best cars of your generation, you will not and should not win a competitive SM race.

ANY competent machine shop can build an engine within 3 hp of the best legal SM engine, not just an "SM" engine builder.

By competitive, I mean well attended National, well attended regional, excluding wet races.

[Ron Alan]

Best post in this tread , too many people over think the car and forget the driver, the biggest variable.
And as for parity and rules changes all the time we have to stop trying to make it to the lowest common denominator, one cant just buy a cheap car , not develop it, dont try to develop as a driver and then cry wolf and try to bring the front guys down to their level or accuse them of cheating.
Every time I had a driver complaint about a car we worked on we just plug Elivan in it for a few laps and the complaints end right there, all the way back to the go kart days.
Russia eliminated the rich to favor the poor and we all know how that turned out.Don't try to slow the fast ones, speed up the slow ones. :-)
Ademir

Oh man...this is blunt and well said But some refuse to own a mirror

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

I feel the tech inspection should be better and no ifs ands or buts .the year I went to the runoff I was told by an scca official that the top 6 cars had it illegal head work done to their cars .they didn't know how to handle it so they let them go instead of the DQ in them .so what did they do they changed the rules for the following year to make it legal .

what does that show the rest of us cheat until you get caught ?

[Chris70]

That is why this year they ripped the top 5 apart, and more than just motors.
When we had the $10.00 compliance fee everyone bitched about it, the fee went away and now the complaints is that there is not enough tech, too many people want to have their cake and eat it too. :-)
Cheers
Ademir
S.A.C. racing

[Brandon]

I do not agree that it is MUCH cheaper to buy an older donor. The older donors cost significantly more to replace worn parts and bring up to a capable running race standard. I have a PERFECT '99 on a trailer in front of my house now that we purchased for $1,000 with a blown head gasket.

And I've got $2000 to pay you for it right now if you'd like.

[Ron Alan]

I feel the tech inspection should be better and no ifs ands or buts .the year I went to the runoff I was told by an scca official that the top 6 cars had it illegal head work done to their cars .they didn't know how to handle it so they let them go instead of the DQ in them .so what did they do they changed the rules for the following year to make it legal .

what does that show the rest of us cheat until you get caught ?

Is this actually documented and public knowledge? What was the exact "out of spec" item they then allowed? For us newer guys please

[JP3]

I think everybody on the right track more seat time ,I have all my drivers doing chump car in a piece of sh!! miata .Everyboby has said it has helped them deal with passing, setting up a pass ,late braking . Just cheap seat time no pressure ,good seat time for cheap

[pat slattery]

I think some on this site could confirm this?

[Jim Drago]

Is this actually documented and public knowledge? What was the exact "out of spec" item they then allowed? For us newer guys please

If that were true, all would have been disqualified. PERIOD. All these third party stories, each time the story gets better and better. Frankly, as P2 finisher that year, I 'm tired of the rumors. I didn't even build that engine, it was a full Stewart and there was nothing illegal in it. There is no defending BS. When you pass technical inspection, it is over, sorry there is no armchair QB here, just not the way it works. Try getting there yourselves rather than trying to knock down those that have.

The rules in 09 outlined what a very good stock head looked like, it allowed for people with poor cylinder heads with core shift to get to good cylinder heads without the luxury of flow benching a few dozen like I have with the salvage yard. We mentioned when the rules passed, there are bone stock heads that will not pass that rule that have never been touched. I have found three illegal 99 heads come through that were never touched since 2010 where the plunge was too deep on one or a few holes.

One thing holds true... You can pass a tear down every time, there are always stories regardless. They pull the engine apart... he was doing a computer and trans. They check computers , engines and transmissions... Oh he had lightened gears in the rear end. Some people will never be happy or satisfied, fact of life.

[JP3]

Amen Jim