603 replies to this topic

[Alberto]

In my opinion, this is an incredibly myopic view.

I know a few of the guys who have been involved in rules making (Mueller at NASA, Drago & Fowler at SCCA). Those guys don't make rules for self interest. Even if they could or would, think for just a second about the size of the market they serve in SM vs the size of the market of their REAL businesses.

The hours and hours and hours they burn on rule making would be so much better spent by them - from a capitalist's perspective - on their real businesses. Why do they do it? They love the sport. They love the clubs.

None of these guys are getting rich from ANY part of SM. I think it is insulting to imply otherwise.

You want the racers to make the rules? Guess what. They do. These guys are racers to the core.

It's already a thankless job. Let's not be insulting on top of that.

Sorry. Not trying to be insulting. Apologies if it came off that way. I've got nothing against Jim or others who "liked" your post. I don't know any of you or your characters and my comment was not directed to any.

On the flip side, I've seen that as an issue in other racing series in which I participated. I'm not being myopic as much as sharing a concern from past experience. Conflicts of interest can exist. Do they exist here? I have no idea but I hope not. The overboring debate as well as the proposal of spec'ing of the 99 suspension bits into the NA chassis are examples of proposals that give me concern about people's motivations.

I think the class is awesome and the rule set is great. It could be better with better rules enforcement and a tighter rules on motors. Built motors is not in line with a SPEC class IMO.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

The overboring debate as well as the proposal of spec'ing of the 99 suspension bits into the NA chassis are examples of proposals that give me concern about people's motivations.

Never saw a rule suggested that required anyone to overbore? So if rule passes just dont take advantage of the (no advantage rule). I have heard more than 1,1.6er cry the blues about their suspension is not good enough and that the 99 has a big advantage there. IMO and I dont know this for sure seems that rule was suggested to fix that problem or percieved problem. I have no idea as I have never even driven a 1.6 street miata.

[AJ Roderick]

• Event directors have no interest in the trouble a teardown brings at a regional level. They do not want people getting pissed and never coming back because they spent their party time rebuilding the top end of their engine, putting a tranny or rear end back in, or whatever the case is. They need happy participants to stay in business, teardowns are nervous and volatile times for racers as Jim D said, how many weekends do you submit to a teardown before it's not fun anymore? You'll actually lose people if consistent teardowns are done on the regional level, which is why a National 99+ SM and a NA Regional SM would work better. National guys are willing, able, and agreeable to a teardown at every race because the National scene is more like "semi-pro" racing. It costs more, there's a higher level of competition, more bragging rights, contingencies, and a more serious, competitive nature'd attitude.

Teardowns shouldn't be nervous unless you know you have something that shouldn't be there. With my past experience with karting, I would take my motor to the tech shed and not worry one bit because I know I had a legal motor. The WKA Gold Cup went through a similar situation like this where an engine builder was playing in some gray areas and the tech wasn't in depth enough. I saw more people leave because of the lack of tech rather than having to tear down every race. Granted the karts are a lot easier to put back together after tech.

[Blake Thompson]

Having the event at any one track for two long always gives a home advantage.

home advantage! Holy buckets.

[Blake Thompson]

So, here's a challenge for all of the big shots, casual readers, and especially the "first time posters" out there, list the reasons why YOU got involved in SM?

I built my first car with a friend, that we shared, for <$7500. We were "top of mid pack" at regional races and had a blast. It was also cheaper per minute than any autocross weekend. We even drove the car to each event... that is till we built that first motor then we figured it was a bad idea

[Alex Bolanos]

kwebb, on 10-13-2011 04:26 PM, said:


There is another +1,000,000 lots of honest SM'er in my opinion, being fast does not equal cheater!

Correct and to piggy back on that, here are some bullet points based on my experiences so far in SM:

Pre disclaimers: I own a '99 and a '94, I've (been luck enough to have) driven many examples of SMs at various levels of prep including 1.6s, 1.8s, and 99s in NASA FL, SCCA SE, regionals, nationals, SARRCs, etc, everything below is highly opinionated but based on my observations, Jamie Tucker is a midget, etc.

-Cheating happens in racing, rule books and enforcement must either keep up or be thrown out.
-Cheating is typically inversely proportional to qualifying position, as Jim mentioned the mid pack houses some incredibly interesting sounding and performing cars. What would you do to your car if you knew you'd NEVER have to take it apart in front of someone? Come race a regional at Daytona some day...
-Tech inspection in FL is typically limited to weight and rarely plates which is disappointing, I am now spoiled by the job that both SCCA and NASA did at their respective championship events and think that we really need to work on enforcement of the current rules at rational events.
-The benefit of magic ECUs has been largely eliminated by the opening of FP/Timing, open ECUs would be a HUGE mistake (traction control, sky high rev limiters, engine braking, 3 or 4 fuel maps, etc)
-Parity is very good at most flat tracks as long as attention is paid to the level of prep of the cars, this is often overlooked and the 99 gets a bad wrap because they're typically better prepped (I'm guilty of this myself with my own two cars)
-The weights of the 4 generations need to be closer, it's frustrating to have to screw with a delta of 170lbs of ballast between a 1.6 and 99 when driving different cars.
-There is no need to regulate how many sets of tires people bring, you would laugh at some of the shit tires the Autotechnik crew runs typically. I would argue that at most regionals here in FL, the mid pack has better tires than the front.

Flame away

[Rob Burgoon]

How about pooling some compliance money to put in a 30 car field say... 3 cars from the top 8 and 2 cars from the rest onto the dyno and post the hp, tq, and afr curves publicly and online? That could be done for less than $10 an entry in my region.

No actions from dyno results alone, but extend the protest period until an hour after the final dyno run is posted.

If you smell blood, throw paper.

Thoughts?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

How about pooling some compliance money to put in a 30 car field say... 3 cars from the top 8 and 2 cars from the rest onto the dyno and post the hp, tq, and afr curves publicly and online? That could be done for less than $10 an entry in my region.

No actions from dyno results alone, but extend the protest period until an hour after the final dyno run is posted.

If you smell blood, throw paper.

Thoughts?

Well the idea sounds great, but if a fifth grader can overcome the dyno and well you know its gonna be there a cheater is gonna practice his dyno difusing strategy. I have to believe the Dyno experts when they say this stuff as I have a 4th graduate education and can think of at least two ways to defeat the dyno if I really want to. Increased tech is the only way. Problem is who wants to do it? Face it tech is more thankless than CRB

[JBlaisdell]

Danny, I don't think that will cure the whining because:


4/10/10 112.72 99.96
4/11/10 104.72 93.25

The 104 guy will still complain about the 112 guy and claim that he should be entitled to be competitive even though he doesn't prep his car correctly.

Alex, what is missing from this...Let's say the HP Cap for the listed cars was 115hp...then Mr. 104 can whine and cry all he wants, except he can't blame Mr. 113. Ill prepared drivers/cars will always complain, but now they can't point fingers at a legal car/driver. The big bad Lie Detector(dyno) is now the enemy, as it should be...immediate truth!!!

[Jim Boemler]

The "lie detector" is a great idea, "IF" it's reliable, and "IF" it's possible. My own region is totally strapped for both cash and volunteers, so any program would have to run by the SM group, and paid for from Day One by the SM group. How do we finance it? Is the group willing to pony up the volunteer time to run it? And if we do, would the results be accepted by the others in the group?

[Rob Burgoon]

Well the idea sounds great, but if a fifth grader can overcome the dyno and well you know its gonna be there a cheater is gonna practice his dyno difusing strategy. I have to believe the Dyno experts when they say this stuff as I have a 4th graduate education and can think of at least two ways to defeat the dyno if I really want to. Increased tech is the only way. Problem is who wants to do it? Face it tech is more thankless than CRB

Right, but tech only happens if people throw paper. People don't want to throw paper because of the risk.

If someone is gaming the dyno, there may be clues on the AFR or curves or timing (could post that too).

Certainly if someone wants to work for it, they can probably completely beat it, but they'd have to work a little harder for it.

It would keep honest mistakes like Doug M and his 120hp from going on for a long time and possibly clean up the midpack some. Could even remove the bias towards testing the front guys if you wanted.

[Rob Burgoon]

The "lie detector" is a great idea, "IF" it's reliable, and "IF" it's possible. My own region is totally strapped for both cash and volunteers, so any program would have to run by the SM group, and paid for from Day One by the SM group. How do we finance it? Is the group willing to pony up the volunteer time to run it? And if we do, would the results be accepted by the others in the group?

$10 on top of each entry for 3 pulls on however many cars you can afford to do in the time your money pool buys you. And under my scheme, nothing happens if someone has a high number, it just invites paper.

Pick a region with a lot of fishy midpackers and a cheapish dyno at one of their tracks and see if they would be willing to give this a whirl. If they like it, expand the program to more regions.

I'd volunteer to personally kick this off in Socal, but I'm not convinced our fields are big enough for a good sample, or our midpackers are cheating all that much.

[Andrew Charbonneau]

Come on men and women, Too many variables involved for 6 hp to be a factor a wheel berring can be a full 1 to 2 sec. over heating can be time, one cornor can be 1 sec, total overal lap times will not show.

In my humble opinion no fear here on showing my dyno results if someone has more power I must out drive and out think my fellow racer . I have driven all types you forget that the 99 is a easyer drive than lets say 1990 but a good driver
will kick ass in a 1.6 well preped car . cars are getting closer road america hp track so you must bring hp it shows . ask danny s hey chased hp all week and finished 10th mister champ had 130 plus and drove around people.

drago had 260 hp add his hp and sg pushing him off the track. the rules makers will get it right and the cheaters will be found they still give the trophy p1 after tech and all of the last champions past tec dyno will not work .too much cost at track .

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I think if we all just pitch in on some REALLY GOOD DOUGHNUTS, we could really attract some top notch tech people. Even if we have a field of 25 guys and they pay 10.00 each thats only $250.00 a day, if we hired a guy to do this that is before taxes if we pay him more than 600.00 we have to send him a 1099 so Uncle Sam gets his cut. I do think for $500.00 per weekend that might fetch you a pretty good mazda mechanic, but does he understand tech and racing, I am sure he could be trained, then who trains him? Just another pie int he sky IDEA I thought I might just toss out there.

[High Chair]

Alex, what is missing from this...Let's say the HP Cap for the listed cars was 115hp...then Mr. 104 can whine and cry all he wants, except he can't blame Mr. 113. Ill prepared drivers/cars will always complain, but now they can't point fingers at a legal car/driver. The big bad Lie Detector(dyno) is now the enemy, as it should be...immediate truth!!!

Owning a dyno and using it on a lot of Miatas I can tell you for 100% sure that there is no way to use a dyno to make sure all the cars are equal. I can easily defeat a dyno as can most other drivers who use them on a regular bases. If people want to cheat they will and unless there is enforcement then we will always get the occasional guy that wants to win at all cost. Take the sic last weekend for example. Those cheated up 1.6 MAF meters were everywhere (products of a well known engine builder) and yet nothing was done about it. I doubt I will even bother racing for SARRC points next year as the sic has become a run what you brung event anyway. At least at the nationals most of the drivers are legal and within a few HPs of each other. Last year at the ARRC my engine came back in a cooler (normal post race tech) and it is very likely that someone else's will be in a cooler at the 2011 ARRC. That type of enforcement goes a long way!

[Andrew Charbonneau]

ps cheaters will be delt with the right way with paper I heard that {sammy valy shock} which is his new nickname had the same shocks as the winner but the winner changed his shocks before the race so did he cheat during qul.

your never a cheater until you get caught. ps didnt sammy get thrown out before for the same thing. hummm

[High Chair]

Alex,
I may be a midget but I do have an ARRC win and am the 2011 SARRC champ. What do you have again? That just happened all the way from the Galapagos Islands!

[High Chair]

ps cheaters will be delt with the right way with paper I heard that {sammy valy shock} which is his new nickname had the same shocks as the winner but the winner changed his shocks before the race so did he cheat during qul.

your never a cheater until you get caught. ps didnt sammy get thrown out before for the same thing. hummm

Slamin Sammy Value Shock!!! Another dude that will win at all cost

[Zauskycop]

Still haven't received a response, so I will ask again. Is there any way to source out a "spec" ecu that can be "locked" and not tampered with? I'm not saying an open ECU, but a non-OEM ecu that is pre-programmed and locked. You can fix the early 1.8 rev limit, you can fix the 99 timing etc etc...then lock them up. possible?

[Adax]

I'd like to more specifically state what others have suggested, that there needs to be more focus on the mid-pack, both with regard to compliance and parity. By definition, that is where most of the SM drivers are, and if you want to keep them driving, they can't be ignored.

Parity:
It would be useful to enlist the services of a statistician when making arguments and decisions here. We have a huge sample size. Justifying changes, or lack of them, based on the fact that a 1.6 beat the next 5 '99's at x track on x day is not a valid argument as the winners are statistical outliers. We need to look at something like the median top 5 lap times of the top 3/4 of the field, stratified by car type, license type, track, etc. Here is where the parity answer lies. This could probably be done with the MyLaps data that is freely available. To the mid-pack guys (and there seem to be more 1.6's here) it's little comfort to know that a 1.6 won when the next 10 in front were '99's.

Compliance :
I wouldn't say it's the wild west in the middle but there is some funny stuff going on. Let me back up and say that the SM driver who is just out there for the comradely is rare. We race because we are competitive, and because we are competitive we want to win. I's just as painful to lose P10, that you worked all race to achieve (to a non-compliant car) to the person who has never finished higher than P15 as it is to the fast guy who loses first (to a non-compliant car). After this happens a few times one of a couple of things can happen - you stop racing or you start cheating. We hope that this driver would rise above and continue to improve his skill but no everyone has the patience for this. The legal guy in the front is not leaving the sport, the legal guy in the middle is. For the good of the sport, we need to make sure the middle playing field is just as level as the front because that is where most of us play.

I've finished behind other mid-pack cars that I know first-hand were non-compliant (some have told me). So why don't I protest? As you all probably know it's not that easy. It's my 3rd year racing and I don't want to become known as that asshole who protested P20. I like the people I race with and meet new friends every race. I'll never have a career in racing, and never be nationally competitive. Perhaps I'll become thicker skinned as time goes on but for now I'm trying not to make enemies. My driving skills probably make enough as it is. Self-policing is difficult for most of us because we are generally social creatures.

Alan