603 replies to this topic

[5X Racing]

I was with you until this comment. What makes you think that us "National guys" wouldn't rather be drinking beer and laughing in Charbonneau's general direction rather than tearing our cars apart? Nobody likes to have to prove they're legal, it comes with running up front so we deal with it. Splitting SM into regional and national makes zero sense, as long as I have the desire/money/ability to prep both my '94 and '99 to the same level I will. When I don't, I'll sell them and take up fishing.

What this means is that I will show up to a regional with my top prep (because I want to and it's part of racing) '94 which will be within 2-3% lap time of my '99 depending on the track.... Are you not going to let me register for the event because I have a National license?

Ahhh, I knew my online nemesis wouldn't let me get away with writing too much . Not interested in debating with you Alex, it's a brainstorming session to improve and secure Spec Miata's future as the most popular class in grassroots racing, in which I am interested in. I have no basis to argue with you, I am not trying to steer an idea of mine into play, I KNOW that people are not interested in splitting the class and I really am against it myself, and I am surely not the one to be determining if you will be able to register for a regional event with a national license. I am merely just provoking interesting conversation and thoughts to fuel the idea flow like everyone else in here. Whether my ideas are more far fetched than others, or whether or not my ideas fly with the readers on here concerns me not, they're ideas in a brainstorming session to discuss the future of Spec Miata and I am participating because I like this class and want to see it continue for many years. I really have no interest in defending the concept of a split class Spec Miata if it makes no sense to you, it's not something I am campaigning nor do I think it will ever really happen. In actuality, we already have this and it is called the ITA class and the ITS class. ITA rules allow 90-97 Miatas and ITS allows the 99+ Miatas, different classes which allow a more open field of development. If ITA had as many cars as SM, I'd have already built one out of my 91.

I don't know what the grids look like at SCCA national races, is it predominantly 99's or is it an equal mix? If it's an equal mix, you gotta at least wonder what's going to become of all the NA cars driven by the guys seeking wins? Are they eventually going to disappear as people realize they need to build a 99 to be nationally competitive (at the majority of the tracks where the 99 has been proven to be better)? I know this, which is why my 91 is for sale and I am building a 99! I want to be on the same level playing field as everyone else at the majority of tracks, and from my experience the 99 is the car to have, is it not? It kinda seems like SM will gradually develop into a 99+ only class over the years naturally as people build new cars, cause anyone out there looking to be on an equal playing field and seeking wins is going to build a 99 in the current rules landscape (except Chip and his 94, )
Amuse me. Why don't you use your 94 at national races? Correct me if I'm wrong, but like you said it's top prepped but yet still within 2-3% of the times you can do in the 99. Why try and push the rules envelope or drive harder to get your 94 on par with your 99?

I really think the class has a great rule set like stated by many before me, we just can't enforce it easily or within the scope of every race (especially regionals) and that is the root of the problem. It's not an easy problem to solve, so maybe this topic will help us work towards solving it, or at least subduing it.

[Johnny D]

Still haven't received a response, so I will ask again. Is there any way to source out a "spec" ecu that can be "locked" and not tampered with? I'm not saying an open ECU, but a non-OEM ecu that is pre-programmed and locked. You can fix the early 1.8 rev limit, you can fix the 99 timing etc etc...then lock them up. possible?

I beleive from reading some of the earlier parts you could put a resistor anywhere in the car and get the result, so tamper proof ECU doesn't help.
J~

[Alex Bolanos]

Alex,
I may be a midget but I do have an ARRC win and am the 2011 SARRC champ. What do you have again? That just happened all the way from the Galapagos Islands!

Muah, love you too

[dstevens]

Still haven't received a response, so I will ask again. Is there any way to source out a "spec" ecu that can be "locked" and not tampered with? I'm not saying an open ECU, but a non-OEM ecu that is pre-programmed and locked. You can fix the early 1.8 rev limit, you can fix the 99 timing etc etc...then lock them up. possible?

Possible but expensive. It's the same sort of thing that Freescale and McLaren are doing next season when Cup goes to injection. When I first started karting I was in a shifter class that had a spec ignition. It was about four times the cost of the stock ignition and just a bit less than a full programmable ignition. They would walk the grid or in tech and at random times would require someone to swap out with the sanction's spec ignition. There was also a purpose built testing apparatus that used a checksum as a pass or fail when connected to the test port. The class only ran for a couple of seasons and wasn't very popular.

[Johnny D]

The reason I mentioned the black box was I could see the cars equipped to monitor Hp/Tq, in real time thus replacing the dyno.
Hand out the boxes before, pick up the boxes after, plug in the boxes at impound, green light pass, red light fail.
Keep the box for further inspection if needed, hand out another next time.
No tear down, not time consuming, after initial cost very cheap and effective and you don't need a lot of volunteers.
J~

[Alex Bolanos]

5X Racing, on 10-13-2011 07:11 PM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but like you said it's top prepped but yet still within 2-3% of the times you can do in the 99. Why try and push the rules envelope or drive harder to get your 94 on par with your 99?

Mainly because when I bought my '99 it already had a top level motor in it, my '94 has always just been 117~120hp which is not competitive in SCCA. That being said, I will be bringing the '94 up to snuff for the 2012 season with the intent of driving it interchangeably with the '99 in SCCA (I'll run NASA with the '94 exclusively obviously)

[dstevens]

The tech many say they want here on this forum is FAR above normal tech in any class in club racing in any sanctioning body. I am not saying it is not possible and I am not saying we shouldn't do it. What I am saying is that the level of tech at the Runoffs and NASA champs is more than most pro series.

You sure about that Chief? NASCAR, from Whelan to Cup does more than that every weekend. Regional drags too. Karting too. The Bullring can run through 75 to 100 cars in a one night show and that includes intrusive teardown on the top classes. Tech includes pre practice and post race race and qual. It's more than weights and patches. I've even seen Inex take Legends and Bando engines and parts and have them sent back to Charlotte. From my perspective club sports car racing has some of the least amount of tech compared to other amateur racing.

[Jim Drago]

You sure about that Chief? NASCAR, from Whelan to Cup does more than that every weekend. Regional drags too. Karting too. The Bullring can run through 75 to 100 cars in a one night show and that includes intrusive teardown on the top classes. Tech includes pre practice and post race race and qual. It's more than weights and patches. I've even seen Inex take Legends and Bando engines and parts and have them sent back to Charlotte. From my perspective club sports car racing has some of the least amount of tech compared to other amateur racing.

You got me there..

[FTodaro]

• For starters, as people have said before, there is just not enough volunteers to want to help accomplish this. This trumps all other reasons and makes them a moot point, but for the sake of conversation the rest follow.
• Nobody is going to want to pull a head and spend their Saturday night putting their car back together for Sundays races. They want to drink beer and socialize with their friends, because they are their for fun and that's not their idea of fun. I wouldn't be surprised if most people said "Nah, just keep my trophy and DQ me, cause it ain't worth my time". Who could blame them? Yes, Jim D is right, I believe only the front runners are prepared and have the time, knowledge, willingness, and equipment to comply with a teardown. That's not the majority of the racers, ESPECIALLY at a regional race.
• Event directors have no interest in the trouble a teardown brings at a regional level. They do not want people getting pissed and never coming back because they spent their party time rebuilding the top end of their engine, putting a tranny or rear end back in, or whatever the case is. They need happy participants to stay in business, teardowns are nervous and volatile times for racers as Jim D said, how many weekends do you submit to a teardown before it's not fun anymore? You'll actually lose people if consistent teardowns are done on the regional level, which is why a National 99+ SM and a NA Regional SM would work better. National guys are willing, able, and agreeable to a teardown at every race because the National scene is more like "semi-pro" racing. It costs more, there's a higher level of competition, more bragging rights, contingencies, and a more serious, competitive nature'd attitude.

John you hit on some vary practical points when it comes to the regional events and National for that matter except the big events. I kind of alluded to this in my post above but you nailed it. How much do you want to inconvenience the folks in compliance to try and catch the 1, 5, 20, 25% what ever the number is of the cheaters.

Clubs are worried about filling the paddock and if we make racing this much work even more folks are going to quit. It sure will not lower the cost of competition. The Idea of the protest system I assume was to allow for a focused examination of a particular racer. I have never protested someone but maybe that process should be examined and discussed to remove the stigma of being unpopular because it will allow the process to hone in on the problem folks.

[5X Racing]

John you hit on some vary practical points when it comes to the regional events and National for that matter except the big events. I kind of alluded to this in my post above but you nailed it. How much do you want to inconvenience the folks in compliance to try and catch the 1, 5, 20, 25% what ever the number is of the cheaters.

Clubs are worried about filling the paddock and if we make racing this much work even more folks are going to quit. It sure will not lower the cost of competition. The Idea of the protest system I assume was to allow for a focused examination of a particular racer. I have never protested someone but maybe that process should be examined and discussed to remove the stigma of being unpopular because it will allow the process to hone in on the problem folks.

I think it would be awesome for National events to have regular tech, compliance fee and all. I'd pay the extra entry fees and costs to go to National races knowing that there would be teardowns because it would attract an audience not afraid to be torn down.

The protest system is a catch 22 in my opinion, nobody wants to be the dick or sore loser in the paddock, and some people might not know what to protest. We read that $4500 was the cost to protest Goulart's engine earlier in the year, what percentage of the SM crowd is going to actually pay that? If it was more user friendly it would probably work a lot better.

[Keith Andrews]

Still haven't received a response, so I will ask again. Is there any way to source out a "spec" ecu that can be "locked" and not tampered with? I'm not saying an open ECU, but a non-OEM ecu that is pre-programmed and locked. You can fix the early 1.8 rev limit, you can fix the 99 timing etc etc...then lock them up. possible?

I don't know where the ECU is in my car. So this may be totally F'd.

I thought the way you controlled this was everyone gets their ECU at the track from the tech people. Before you leave you turn in the ECU. Basically you pull an ECU out of a hat.

[Keith Andrews]

Regarding the Black Box.

I know NASA-SE has been putting a traqmate boxes in cars. I don't know what information they gained but we had a good cross section of well prepped cars represented.

[5X Racing]

Danny,

Got another one for your list at the bottom:

SUGGESTION LIST SO FAR

• Stop changing the spec - try and get to a sensible spec quickly and hold it for at least a few years - regular spec rule changes are not good for the class
• Close the gap between NASA and SCCA - find a middle ground on weight and restrictor size
• Close the parity issue between 1.6 and 99 - this is really hard as it is SO TRACK DEPENDENT
• Increase tech or the rampant cheating will escalate - I vote for returning the $10 tech compliance fee to tech NOT ONLY THE FRONT, but also RANDOM MID PACK racers
• Horsepower Cap?

• Set the cap limit at whatever - say 120HP.
• Make a portable dyno available at the track to all on test day before the race, and on race days. Get on teh dyno, pay a nominal fee, make sure you are under the cap
• After a qualifying or race session, send the top 3-5 PLUS at least 2 random mid pack runners to the dyno immediately - cannot go to pits or put the hood up.
• Dyno guy gets in and runs your car to see what their numbers are
• If your numbers are way over limit, lose your qualifying time or your race position.
• Detune the car to meet the cap.

• Split 90-97 Regional - 99+ National
• Dont split classes - too many classes already
• Engine claim rule
• Stiffer penalities / fines / bans for cheaters
• More self policing from SM racers - polite requests to protests
• Disallow tire shaving
• Enforce Power to weight ratio
• No pro motors
• Sealed motors
• Black box - some sort of mandated data capture for tech to check for anomalies
• No chin spoliers !!!
• stock suspension
• DOT tires

any more suggestions???

Since the proper way to find an illegal car in both the SCCA and NASA is to file a protest, how about an "SM protest guide" that racers can use as a guideline to protest a competitor and the costs associated with doing so supplied to the organizations and made available to the racers every weekend? Things like cam specs are already published in the rule book, and we can get expert advice from engine builders and shops on commonly known and easy to check items, how to check them, and how much they would charge to check those things. Hell, the SCCA and NASA might already have a list from the teardowns at the championships. A lot of people don't know what to protest, so they don't want to waste money guessing. I don't think the event stewards know what to check either, so it would help them out a lot as well.

Here's a hypothetical scenario:
Racer A has a suspiciously fast car and wins the race, his competitors are frustrated. Racer B can go to the officials and request to see the "SM protest guide" (which would be present at post race impound) to determine what they think could be illegal on the car and how much it will cost for them to have it checked. If they want to continue, they file the protest and the organization takes it from there, whether it be taken care of by a tech inspector, checked by a panel of peers, or sent off to an engine builder after the weekend.

Just an idea. Still floundering about trying to think of things that are not too far fetched or will be detrimental to the class.

[Bench Racer]

Still haven't received a response, so I will ask again. Is there any way to source out a "spec" ecu that can be "locked" and not tampered with? I'm not saying an open ECU, but a non-OEM ecu that is pre-programmed and locked. You can fix the early 1.8 rev limit, you can fix the 99 timing etc etc...then lock them up. possible?

Tracy, from what I've read on this site & from what two well known dudes who are behind this thread & one has allready posted both have said YES at the Runoffs tent meeting.

Creat a new SCCA rule that allows randomly switching ECU's that never return home.

Allan from Atlanta I also will never receive a call from the owner of a pro race team or race competitively at the SCCA national level. I get my grinz from improving each session on track. I may pop for a pro motor just to make a point at Road America using an approate experienced two time SCCA National champion driver.

Protesting within the SCCA is a total joke. Did my first protest this past weekend to a driver (me, approx 55 SCCA regional races to date) that must have never read GCR rules 6.11.1. (yes he shows up on this site) I can handle the aggravation from anyone that want's to serve the aggravation. It's the aggravation dished out from within the SCCA that's an issue along with in this past weekends protest the aggervation severed up by the SCCA Chicago region event's SOM's & chairman of the SOM that is totally draining & blinds one's thoughts of ever any being any part of helping clean up the SCCA issues other than being part of the Spec Miata rules brainstorming. The SCCA clearly has GCR rules that they clearly will not enforce. Now the front end of the storry, with a brand new first class build 1.6 car (other than the motor & option goodies) at its first SCCA regional race the car received rear uibody frame pulling damage & rear body damage from a very fast driver ( found out by race end finish positions) that didn't qualify who started two grid spots rear. The simple version, at the green flag before the flag station middle track opened, I shoot the opening, two rows ahead an ITA car got turned 90* degrees sideways to the track, I have a car on each side & a car turned 90* ahead, split second decision, brakes, WHAM to my readend, 90* shoots right, left side car gone turn left continue race. All before the flag station.

John A., Jim B. of nasa, with a clean sheet of paper brainstorming thoughts could be documated that IMHJ would improve the parity by getting rid of the drastically different weights between the 90 & 99 spec lines within the SCCA (or nasa) & fully using the restrictor plate. I talk SCCA because I understand the rules. Weight is a race cars nemesis, but both org's keep playing with weight. The info is typed & ready to be posted but because one is capable of thinking outside the SCCA box it's not wort posting. If I were to send the info to the SCCA SMAC I don't know if that would be worth while. < That's not cop out it's an experienced fact with the SCCA.

To the guy that is talking statiistics, your grooven dude.

Oh, yes folks I know where to find sympathy, between $hit & syphilis in a dictionary.

[5X Racing]

Regarding the Black Box.

I know NASA-SE has been putting a traqmate boxes in cars. I don't know what information they gained but we had a good cross section of well prepped cars represented.

Been doing this in NASA FL for a while. Still haven't heard any results on any of the data gathered. Honestly we have never gotten any feedback from the data in the cars and I have no idea what's ever become of it. It seems to be a good indicator to determine whether or not a teardown should be imminent, but you have to have somebody analyze the data right after the race, which involves somebodies time. Peoples time is hard to buy for free, which is the problem with proper tech.

[Johnny D]

Been doing this in NASA FL for a while. Still haven't heard any results on any of the data gathered. Honestly we have never gotten any feedback from the data in the cars and I have no idea what's ever become of it. It seems to be a good indicator to determine whether or not a teardown should be imminent, but you have to have somebody analyze the data right after the race, which involves somebodies time. Peoples time is hard to buy for free, which is the problem with proper tech.

Just thinking, (not sure how hard to do) Have some software look at max limits in Hp/Tq numbers in the box. If your in limits, green light. If your out, red light.
Maybe sounds too easy.
J~

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Been doing this in NASA FL for a while. Still haven't heard any results on any of the data gathered. Honestly we have never gotten any feedback from the data in the cars and I have no idea what's ever become of it. It seems to be a good indicator to determine whether or not a teardown should be imminent, but you have to have somebody analyze the data right after the race, which involves somebodies time. Peoples time is hard to buy for free, which is the problem with proper tech.

LOL biggest joke going! You dont even know who is looking at the data to start with, what qualifies them to make any assumptions John? Not only that the competitor isnt even asked to submit to this its just jammed in there. I have even had this done to my car at Road Atl. why would my data be worth two sh+ts? I had never been there and didnt even get a test day my first practice session I missed turn 2,3, and 4 and then pitted on the outside pit road coming under the bridge. In qualifying I got the traqmate, and what would that data be good for IYO? Even if my car had 10+ hp more than anyone else if you park it in all the corners the only thing that might give me away is acceleration. and of course back to your point you dont even know where the data goes or what is done with it. If it is not used for teching what is it used for? Mueller where are you? Where is the national data bank of data? top secret I am sure!

[Danny Steyn]

John A - I like the idea of a well written protest guide - make it simple easy to read and even get a few SCCA gurus like John Nesbitt to contribute. I think if we make it easier, and actually encourage the behaviour (protesting what we believe is outside the spec or even outside the spirit of the class (whatever that means)) then I think we will see some self policing happen - maybe not. But clearly see the need to make this aspect less of a mystery, and less intimidating.

In national competition I have seen well versed "pros" be listed as the entrant for a driver so that someone well versed in the tech shed process can either file a protest on the drivers behalf, or defend a protest on a drivers behalf. This gives you an idea of what drivers face.... needs to be easier and better understood.

And Kyle - its actually really easy to see what a car has using Traqmate. Seen several anomalies out in regional racing over the years. Sometimes the owner himself had absolutely no idea that he had anything over-the-top. But the data shows it clearly. Doesnt tell you what is wrong - but draws your attention to something that is not like the rest.

[Bruce Wilson]

Holy crap guys. I've seen the off season threads for some 9 years now and have to say this one beats all the rest. Long Live SM!!!


-Dean

[Ron Alan]

+1
I've also noticed that compared to some other cars they have better power at the top end, it's a double whammy when they get the extra power AND the extra revs.

For us power isn't the issue...pull just fine with the 1.6...until that point we hit the rev limiter(like a brake 2 seconds before we want to brake!)and the 1.6 jumps forward. For those who are screaming "just shift" we do or will...but it's a disadvantage we didn't really have before the rule change. And since everyone knows probably the most common reason for being or making passes(equal cars)is missed shifts(especially under g load...mid corner)this increases our odds of making a mistake.

It cost us $1000 to change our diff and become compliant/gear ratio equal...can we spend $100 with the guy who advertises on this forum to move our rev limiter to(equal!) the next lowest factory # in a stock ecu???

In a different thread Jim D posted the NA 1.8 rev limiter at 6900rpm. Can someone post the 1.6 and 99 rev limit #s? Jim??