61 replies to this topic

[davew]

Let me express my experiences with Stewart Development shocks. Starting at the beginning.

I have been using Bernie’s services for several years. Purchasing around 15 sets of shocks. I have always requested legal rebuilds. A “buff and fluff” only. Nothing even close to the max spec. What has been described as the SD1 valving.

Now, I had the same experiences as many of you. Poor delivery, lack of communication, etc. But I always got my product.

Last winter I purchased several sets of new shocks from Bernie, all with the SD1 Valving. I exchanged these shocks with customers, with a plan of sending their existing shocks back to Bernie for rebuild.

During a recent conversation with John Mueller, he explained to me that he and Bernie had a new program that would eliminate any customer service issues. So I sent 4 front and 4 rear shocks off to Bernie, with great anticipation. This was around Aug 29. In 2 weeks I received an email via UPS Quantun View, from Bernie, on Sept 14, stating “Dave, Your shocks will ship in a day or two”. The email included a UPS tracking number. The fact of receiving a tracking number for a package that won’t ship for “a day or two” seemed odd. But I did not really worry about it. I felt 2 weeks was a very reasonable time frame. And, I headed to the Runoffs, expecting the shocks to be sitting on my floor when I returned.

The Runoffs tech issues are detailed elsewhere, but I will add a footnote to them. Voytek Burdzy eventually ended up 3^rd in the tech barn. SCCA requested the left front and right rear shocks for dyno inspection. I had no concerns as these where the SD1 shocks that are legal. They passed. BARELY!!! I was pulled aside by the SCCA inspectors and told that these shocks where right at the limit of the SCCA spec. I was also told that SCCA had inspected several sets of shocks with the SD1 stickers, and had found most to be non-compliant. I should point out that these shocks are 1 year old. They where installed prior to the 2010 Runoffs, and have 40+ hours of track use. Had they been fresh, they probably would not have passed.

I get back in the shop, and I do not have a box of shocks on the floor. I contact John via email and receive an apology and an explanation that he is no longer reselling Bernie’s services. And, that he would do whatever he could to get the shocks shipped ASAP.

I finally get a UPS email showing the package was picked up on Sept 27 at 5:57 pm. A full 13 days after the UPS packing list was generated. I finally received the shocks on Sept 29. After a quick visual inspection, I sent the entire box of shocks to SCCA for testing. Yesterday I got the results and dyno sheets from SCCA. Of the 8 shocks I sent, 3 where found to be non-compliant. And the other 5 are too close for my comfort.

As a courtesy to John and Bernie, I sent a copy of this post to them a couple hours ago. John emailed me back quickly asking me to hold off posting until I had a chance to talk to Bernie. I talked to Bernie a little while ago. The basis of his arguement is that the SCCA testing process is wrong. His process is correct and the shocks are compliant. I am not a shock dyno expert. But my way of thinking is that we have to meet the SCCA spec, as tested by the SCCA method. After 30 minutes on the phone, Bernie got verbally abusive towards me. At that point I had a customer in the shop and needed to end the call.

I am not going to tell anyone what to do. These are the facts behind my decision to never use Stewart Development again. Each of you can make your own decisions. I will not be using these shocks on any Spec Miata. I will use them on the V8 car and a prod style car we are building.

If you have SD1 shocks on your car I would be suspect of their compliance. Your conscience must be your guide.

Dave

[JP3]

I have used him in the past, service got slow so I decide then just to buy new and have tested . U must remember if its on ur car and it gets checked its on you wont help been there done that?

[Glenn]

Wonderful! Bilstein in Kanappolis, (yes I called yesterday) no longer rebuilds shocks, so what are our options in the future?

http://www.fastline-...contact-us.html

$65.00 ea plus parts. No affiliation just googled and called. They have done Miata Shocks in the past, will need spec sheet Bruce aslo stated that Bilstein in Ca. still rebuilds.

[Alex Bolanos]

I just avoid all of this drama by buying new shocks and selling the used ones on Miata.net, Clubroadster.net, etc to autocrossers.

[James York]

My last go around with freshening up the car, I just went with new shocks instead of using Bernie again. I had heard of some of the issues and was luckily informed beforehand.

[Jim Daniels - FIG]

Its not like i did not tell everyone to not use this ass wipe. Stiffed me for $ then sold a bunch of cheater shocks saying they were my build. Poor excuse of a person. Sorry I went there, Runoffs this year and the things folks said to me has me tainted.

[john mueller]

If you have SD1 shocks on your car I would be suspect of their compliance. Your conscience must be your guide.

Dave;
First off my email to you this morning said nothing about you speaking with Bernie because I had a feeling how that would go... I wanted you to have my thoughts documented as my livelihood is not impacted by your post nor is it by the services SD sells.

Your facts about your customer service experience are unflattering yet fair, it is what happened so no argument there.

However, while I don't dispute the results of the Run-Offs testing of Voyteck's shocks (and the others that were tested there) or the results from your voluntary test I do have concerns with how they were tested (the process) and with the accuracy of the testing equipment.

Things to ponder about the test:

• Why is a screwdriver used instead of the proper sized bolt through the busing (clevis) when mounting the shock in the dyno?
• Can the operator ensure there is no side-load on the shocks when the the clevis is over tightened when mounting the shock to the dyno with an ill fitting screwdriver?
• As part of the process are the shocks warmed-up before taking a reading so they have a uniform internal temperature thus reaction to forces?
• When was the date of the last calibration of the dyno?
• I can keep going but wont...

I asked the above because I know the answers... Once you become familiar and understand how important some of these things are to quality of the measurements, you start to see that by industry standards SCCAs shock dyno test is flawed thus inaccurate. If tested correctly (more on that below) I suspect that all of your shocks should be well within spec, as would all SD1's and frankly so would the set Sammy Valafar (SD2's) used at this years RunOffs final.



Yes, I am no longer reselling SD's services (customer service reasons), but this whole "SM legality" thing is still an issue for me being NASAs National SM Director. When I took this job after the 2010 NASA Nationals the first thing I did was start conversations within NASA to develop a potential new shock spec with a documented testing procedure. I bumped into some hurdles, had a steep learning cure and flat ran out of time to get it done in time... My opinion then as it is now that a new spec is needed & it must be tight enough to eliminate ANY and ALL revalving but broad enough to allow for the wide range that the Bilstein manufacturing process yields. Plus a documented process of how to test them is necessary so all "off the shelf" shocks, even the ones at the edges of manufacturing tolerances can easily pass.

I am working with a manufacture of shock dyno's who is writing a recommended testing procedure for me... After I independently verify that the steps are reasonably repeatable on various types of dyno's I'll marry that with the OEM shock specs that I am getting from Bilstien (also independently verifying). These two things added together will yield an accurate shock spec, complete with testing instructions in one document. Once I have this document and NASA blesses it, I will present it to SMAC to see if both organizations can to move forward with it as the new shock spec/rule.

My reply (this) is not intended as return fire, but as a public explanation of what the real problem is: A bad spec with no explanation of how to test shocks correctly. The existing rule needs to be replaced with something that makes sense.

I believe you and I, along with mostly everyone wants to get it fixed with something that is accurate, repeatable and fair... And, I'm already working on it.

[davew]

John responded to me personally via email. I have responded to him privately.I will not go into the details of my response, but I do want to correct any misinterpritations. I, in no way hold John or Weekend-Racer responsible for anything having to do with this issue. He is no more involved than the UPS man that delivered the box.

John, I wish you luck in getting the testing procedure worked out.

Dave

[Ron Alan]

Disclaimer...I know nothing about shocks or what the advantage or disadvantage of "Out of Spec" shocks are??

What I do know is anyone who's has been racing for a couple years or recently bought a used(not new build)spec miata...odds are you've dealt with or have SD shocks. His name is the only name i've ever heard, besides Bilstien for freshening our class shocks. I for one can't imagine why he would knowingly send out a bad product or even worse, not knowingly! Every set of rebuilt shocks comes with a before and after dyno graph...though I have no idea what it means i'm sure someone does? Like car dyno's that vary slightly, can shock dyno machines? Can readings be just enough of a difference that one machine says good and the other says no? IMO...common sense usually points to operator error...so in this case is it SD or SCCA?. The fact that NASA found Sammy's shocks non-compliant also does not bode well for SD. But then again does it take a certain level of knowledge to use a shock dyno or do you follow a set of instructions stamped on it?

Though completely separate I will speak to my experience with tech and using machines not familiar to all. First off, i'm not in anyway trying to make light off or dismiss what tech does(and that we want more of!)or the thankless efforts they put in!! But as we know volunteers come in all shapes and sizes and a variety of backgrounds. They may be a factory technician down to your local bank teller...great knowledge down to zero knowledge of the many different cars they see on an average weekend.

We recently had the luxury of having our car whistled after qualifying(SCCA). It became very obvious as we readied the car for the test that only one guy had a basic knowlege of how to use the machine...and he kept questioning himself along with trying to show others how to do it. In the end i'm pretty sure they got it right but there was just a slight bit of the blind leading the blind. Several weeks later at a NASA event, a different group of techs whistled a group of cars in which every(I'm told...hope I'm accurate) 1.6 car failed...talk about people wigging out! Nothing was done so I'm assuming these results were tossed...maybe operator error?

For the amount of people that this could possibly affect, I hope John is correct and that Bernie is building a good shock. Never spoken to or met the man...and from what it sounds he may be a really shitty businessman, but he may also be doing a great job when he gets off in his own little corner. Thanks John for the effort your putting in!

[High Chair]

I just avoid all of this drama by buying new shocks and selling the used ones on Miata.net, Clubroadster.net, etc to autocrossers.

Same with all of Auto technik cars. We just buy new ones and run them for a couple of years and then sell them or keep for spares. No shock dynos, re-valves, etc and I think we have done just fine. Why anybody would waste their money on this I have no idea. However I have worked on many cars (read many on this board) that have re-valved shocks with LF, RF, LR, RR written on them; why do you suppose that is?...Saying they have been sent in to bring them back to OEM standards is not going to get it.

[Andrew Charbonneau]

Same with all of Auto technik cars. We just buy new ones and run them for a couple of years and then sell them or keep for spares. No shock dynos, re-valves, etc and I think we have done just fine. Why anybody would waste their money on this I have no idea. However I have worked on many cars (read many on this board) that have re-valved shocks with LF, RF, LR, RR written on them; why do you suppose that is?...Saying they have been sent in to bring them back to OEM standards is not going to get it.

plus 1+ we like old shocks at auto teck its saves money and hugabucks

[Alberto]

Disclaimer...I know nothing about shocks or what the advantage or disadvantage of "Out of Spec" shocks are??

What I do know is anyone who's has been racing for a couple years or recently bought a used(not new build)spec miata...odds are you've dealt with or have SD shocks. His name is the only name i've ever heard, besides Bilstien for freshening our class shocks. I for one can't imagine why he would knowingly send out a bad product or even worse, not knowingly! Every set of rebuilt shocks comes with a before and after dyno graph...though I have no idea what it means i'm sure someone does? Like car dyno's that vary slightly, can shock dyno machines? Can readings be just enough of a difference that one machine says good and the other says no? IMO...common sense usually points to operator error...so in this case is it SD or SCCA?. The fact that NASA found Sammy's shocks non-compliant also does not bode well for SD. But then again does it take a certain level of knowledge to use a shock dyno or do you follow a set of instructions stamped on it?

Though completely separate I will speak to my experience with tech and using machines not familiar to all. First off, i'm not in anyway trying to make light off or dismiss what tech does(and that we want more of!)or the thankless efforts they put in!! But as we know volunteers come in all shapes and sizes and a variety of backgrounds. They may be a factory technician down to your local bank teller...great knowledge down to zero knowledge of the many different cars they see on an average weekend.

We recently had the luxury of having our car whistled after qualifying(SCCA). It became very obvious as we readied the car for the test that only one guy had a basic knowlege of how to use the machine...and he kept questioning himself along with trying to show others how to do it. In the end i'm pretty sure they got it right but there was just a slight bit of the blind leading the blind. Several weeks later at a NASA event, a different group of techs whistled a group of cars in which every(I'm told...hope I'm accurate) 1.6 car failed...talk about people wigging out! Nothing was done so I'm assuming these results were tossed...maybe operator error?

For the amount of people that this could possibly affect, I hope John is correct and that Bernie is building a good shock. Never spoken to or met the man...and from what it sounds he may be a really shitty businessman, but he may also be doing a great job when he gets off in his own little corner. Thanks John for the effort your putting in!

Ron,

I have noticed that as well. Tech is kinda hit or miss. The rules are there but not many people know how to enforce them and how to check the cars and how to use the equipment. I noticed that this year getting my 1.6 a new log book and the various other tech inspections before and in between.

I could totally see them screwing up a shock test if they are trying to use a screwdriver instead of the appropriate sized bolt n the lower shock mount.

[Zauskycop]

Well, it could be that the person installing/reinstalling them wasn't a master mechanic like some of you, and perhaps wanted to know where they go? Hmmm?

(mine are labeled)

Same with all of Auto technik cars. We just buy new ones and run them for a couple of years and then sell them or keep for spares. No shock dynos, re-valves, etc and I think we have done just fine. Why anybody would waste their money on this I have no idea. However I have worked on many cars (read many on this board) that have re-valved shocks with LF, RF, LR, RR written on them; why do you suppose that is?...Saying they have been sent in to bring them back to OEM standards is not going to get it.

[High Chair]

Well, it could be that the person installing/reinstalling them wasn't a master mechanic like some of you, and perhaps wanted to know where they go? Hmmm?

(mine are labeled)

Please tell me that was a joke! If you work for the FAA and can't figure out what shocks go on the front or back I am staying out of your airspace (that is a joke).
These are not on cars of people that do not know where to place their shocks, as if that is difficult anyway. Sorry but re-valved shocks are everywhere and they are NOT oem nor are they intended to be. However I do not hold any vendor responsible as they only provided services that people ask for; what they do with them is their business. Have you looked at the cost of a new shock versus what it costs to get re-valved? It hardly justifies not buying a new one. Of course this is beyond the scope of this thread and really has nothing to do with testing errors, etc. I was talking about those with a total disregard for the rules; not those that ordered legal shocks.

[Jim Drago]

Zauskycop
You can put either front on either side, same goes for the rear is what Jamie is saying.
Jim

[Rob Burgoon]

If you have ABS wires in your car, then it's nice to have left and right fronts on the proper side.

[High Chair]

If you have ABS wires in your car, then it's nice to have left and right fronts on the proper side.

That I could see and just labeling your shocks does not make you guilty; that is not what I was implying. There are people that do that with their legal shocks. However I know there are many who re-valve shocks to improve the performance beyond oem specs and those too are marked for each corner. Personally I really don't care as most of the re-valve jobs I have seen hurt the cars performance instead of helping them and even if they were perfect I doubt 99.99% of us would get any benefit from them anyway.

[pat slattery]

Jim Daniels, we had the shocks done by Bernie, was under the impression, that it was legal, and it was your recommendation to use Bernie. Now I hear, he is a piece of C!x*&%p. It would have been nice to hear that earlier. I wouldn't know the difference between a stock or a revalved shock, we were told the only difference was they were all balanced to give the same about of travel vs a stock shock would not necessarily give those results. Is this more Sizzle than Steak?

I am pretty sure our Runoffs winner was using the SD shock, and I assume he passed.

Pat

[john mueller]

I am pretty sure our Runoffs winner was using the SD shock, and I assume he passed.

Pat

The entire 2011 NASA Nationals SM podium were on SD shocks. I was personally present for the shock dyno tests which were performed by Koni and AST employees, yes testing Bilstein shocks .... They all easily passed given the rules (5 inches per second) under what was a reasonable testing proceedure.

[Ron Alan]

The entire 2011 NASA Nationals SM podium were on SD shocks. I was personally present for the shock dyno tests which were performed by Koni and AST employees, yes testing Bilstein shocks .... They all easily passed given the rules (5 inches per second) under what was a reasonable testing proceedure.

John,

I will ask you directly since you obviously have more personal knowledge of Stewart Development and the product he puts out. It has been my understanding that SD builds(re-builds) a shock to the best possible number...right to the edge of the current rule set...which of course should test "legal" when it leaves his shop. What true gain if any over a new factory shock is truly only known by the shock guru's of the world. With the way the current shock rule is written, is it possible for a brand new factory shock to "Fail"?? I would imagine they have tolerances and occasionally fall outside those?

Do you feel every effort is made by SD to put out an accurate(spec)well built shock? Is it very easy for an end user to ask for and get something other than a SD1 or SD2...maybe a street tuner/HPDE/autocross guy? Happy to get a PM. Thanks.