61 replies to this topic

[Zauskycop]

Please tell me that was a joke! If you work for the FAA and can't figure out what shocks go on the front or back I am staying out of your airspace (that is a joke).
These are not on cars of people that do not know where to place their shocks, as if that is difficult anyway. Sorry but re-valved shocks are everywhere and they are NOT oem nor are they intended to be. However I do not hold any vendor responsible as they only provided services that people ask for; what they do with them is their business. Have you looked at the cost of a new shock versus what it costs to get re-valved? It hardly justifies not buying a new one. Of course this is beyond the scope of this thread and really has nothing to do with testing errors, etc. I was talking about those with a total disregard for the rules; not those that ordered legal shocks.

Well, it wasn't a joke, only in the sense that mine CAME labeled when I bought the car....however no SD sticker on them? I guess I was looking at the front brackets on them and knew they went on different sides (according to those) and I knew those brackets were useless on my application. However I didn't know that they were interchangable...lesson learned from the gurus. Now you have me wondering why they were labeled

Feel free to call me Tracy, Mr. Drago.

[High Chair]

Well, it wasn't a joke, only in the sense that mine CAME labeled when I bought the car....however no SD sticker on them? I guess I was looking at the front brackets on them and knew they went on different sides (according to those) and I knew those brackets were useless on my application. However I didn't know that they were interchangable...lesson learned from the gurus. Now you have me wondering why they were labeled

Feel free to call me Tracy, Mr. Drago.

You never know why they are labeled which was my point. Unless you are running the Runoffs I doubt they would ever be checked anyway; which is a topic all it self. However shocks are so low on the list of things made to make a Miata go fast it is amazing that anybody was found to be non-compliant. I have heard that drivers had big motors, fuel, Ecus, soaked tires (we know who you are ) and a host of other items but I have never heard a fellow driver complain because somebody else had better shocks.

[Todd Green]

You never know why they are labeled which was my point.

I'd presume they are labeled because you get a dyno sheet telling you how each shock performed. Having them labeled makes it easy for the dyno operator to keep them straight. Also, if you have an issue with your shocks down the road and send them back in, it then becomes very easy to make sure you are talking about the same shock(s). When you get them back you can put them on the same corner to see if they issue follows the shock, was random etc. etc. etc.

[Tom Sager]

Jeesh, labellng shocks is a big deal? We label shocks, tires, hubs, brake parts, etc just because we like to put things back in the same place that they were before we took them off the car. A suspension engineer would tell you that if you want to make our cars handle better, the dampers (they like to call them that rather than shocks) need to be substantially revised. If somebody is gong to cheat shocks for a big benefit, they will be way out of spec, not near the edge. I can't recall the last time anyone was caught with a shock that was way off the mark and I think that shocks get looked at in Runoffs tech each year, NASA Champ tech and the ARRC?

[john mueller]

John, I will ask you directly since you obviously have more personal knowledge of Stewart Development and the product he puts out. It has been my understanding that SD builds(re-builds) a shock to the best possible number...right to the edge of the current rule set...which of course should test "legal" when it leaves his shop. What true gain if any over a new factory shock is truly only known by the shock guru's of the world. With the way the current shock rule is written, is it possible for a brand new factory shock to "Fail"?? I would imagine they have tolerances and occasionally fall outside those? Do you feel every effort is made by SD to put out an accurate(spec)well built shock? Is it very easy for an end user to ask for and get something other than a SD1 or SD2...maybe a street tuner/HPDE/autocross guy? Happy to get a PM. Thanks.

Good question Ron! The short answer is all SD SM shock rebuilds are built with a stupid level of attention to detail. which is part of why they take so long sometimes. Honestly, many complain about delivery but I've heard very few complains about the quality.

• SD1 rebuilds are not revalved
• SD2 rebuilds are optimized within the SCCA spec (NASA adapted this spec for the 2011 Nationals)

Bilstien's manufacturing tolerances are large, but if properly tested at the SCCA spec I'd guess that very very small percent would not pass... So I guess I'm saying it's possible just not very probable that a new out-of-the box shock would fail at the SCCA spec. However, if the testing procedures are so bad as to cause up to a 10% variance from actual, I'd say it would become very probable. --- Which in my opinion what D.Wheeler experienced as his SD1's were not revalved.

Does this answer your question Ron?

[john mueller]

However shocks are so low on the list of things made to make a Miata go fast it is amazing that anybody was found to be non-compliant. I have heard that drivers had big motors, fuel, Ecus, soaked tires (we know who you are ) and a host of other items but I have never heard a fellow driver complain because somebody else had better shocks.

Really? Shocks are HUGE for feel... They are what attach the tires to the car and the car to your butt.

[Ron Alan]

Does this answer your question Ron?

I felt comfortable with the product before and just wanted to confirm my suspicions about certain factors. Thanks!

[davew]

Allow me to put a different hat on. As former chairman of the SMAC, I was involved in the shock spec rule making procedure. This is all from a 3 year old memory, so forgive me if I have something wrong. Possibly Jim, Mike or Tom can correct/back me up.

SCCA purchased several sets of stock shocks. Ran them on their dyno, using their procedures. Then averaged the results. This gave a "typical" new shock spec. Then an allowable tolerance was added. This tolerance was far beyond what any of the tested shocks reached. Our discussion was that if you got anywhere near the tolerance, your shock was modified.

I know enough about shocks to be dangerous. I have never used a shock dyno. My Runoffs shocks were found compliant. I did not see the procedure that SCCA used at Road America or in their test lab in Topeka. Obviously, I have never seen Bernies procedures.

I will also agree with John, based on everything I have ever been told by Bernie. SD1 shocks are not revalved only rebuilt using some higher quality bits. SD2 are a revalve.

My issue is very simple. I asked/paid for/expected a shock that would pass SCCA spec when tested by SCCA. On 3 of 8 shocks, I did not recieve what I paid for. Seems very simple to me.

Dave

[Rob Burgoon]

Then the spec got published, but without the screwdriver lower mount test procedure.

[john mueller]

... SCCA purchased several sets of stock shocks. Ran them on their dyno, using their procedures....

I'm not an SCCA member... Is it possible for a member to request a copy of the procedure document?

I will also agree with John, based on everything I have ever been told by Bernie. SD1 shocks are not revalved only rebuilt using some higher quality bits. SD2 are a revalve.

Close, I don't think any parts are being replaced unless they are damaged or worn.

My understanding through conversations (we've never talked specifically about what he does, cuz I'd not understand anyway) are that on for SD1's some of the internal parts are cleaned and polished to take the porous and rough casting/machining marks off, also the NEW oil that is used is filtered to keep crap from floating around & clogging up the valves. Basically making the internals more uniform thus a more balanced set. This alone would have very little effect on compression & rebound.

[Johnny D]

Then the spec got published, but without the screwdriver lower mount test procedure.

I guess will have to see the spec but what, Tech was out of spec with the screw driver ?
That's funny if possibly true or a sad state of affairs for SCCA tech, however you want to look at it.
J~

[Blake Thompson]

Interesting and deep thread over at mNet...

http://forum.miata.n...t=412254&page=5

I got a friend request from Bernie today on facebook and knew I remembered the name so I googled him. Mnet was the first article that came up :-x

[Ron Alan]

After reading that thread I feel very fortunate to have gone through John...shipped off and got back shocks within 3-4 weeks. So is there any other shock rebuilder out there with better customer service?

[john mueller]

After reading that thread I feel very fortunate to have gone through John...shipped off and got back shocks within 3-4 weeks. So is there any other shock rebuilder out there with better customer service?

Thanks Ron.

Honestly, SD's Spec Miata shock rebuild process is rather well sorted, so usually it's not one of ours that causes the problems. It's the street car & other one-off projects that manufacture the drama (not that this justifies for poor customer service). I still highly recommend Bernie's services for SM shocks. They may take longer than the three weeks Weekend-Racer.com clients were getting but they are always worth it once you take the green & the off-season is a perfect time to get them done.

My understanding is that Bilstien has shut-down their east coast service location so all work for all their shocks are done in SoCal w/ lead times of 7-to-9 weeks.... Again, this is what I have heard, I've not confirmed.

[Alberto]

I echo Ron's question. My street car has revalved Koni shocks that provide better control than the off the shelf Bilstein HD.

[Blake Thompson]

would this work any better to buy a finished product with a core charge?

[john mueller]

would this work any better to buy a finished product with a core charge?

It would. There are inherent problems with that too but they are overcome'able and there are a surprisingly large number of people who what "their shocks back"... I'm still helping Bernie with process improvement and some other minor things, a pseudo-core program is something SD hopes to offer in the hear future.

[Blake Clements]

Is polishing internal parts of the shocks legal? Thats what I'm hearing.

[davew]

Is polishing the insides of your intake manifold legal??????

If it does not say you can, you can not. But, can you get away with it is a different question.

Not accusing anyone, just making a point.

Dave
Still 2 seconds off the pace

[Blake Thompson]

It would. There are inherent problems with that too but they are overcome'able and there are a surprisingly large number of people who what "their shocks back"... I'm still helping Bernie with process improvement and some other minor things, a pseudo-core program is something SD hopes to offer in the hear future.

id prefer to have my shocks back too, but if the option is to wait 6 months or get some one else's back quicker I could GAF.