74 replies to this topic

[Adam Molaver]

as others have said, it really is mostly a personal preference scenario. there are certain tracks where a particular pad may not work (like davew described about blackhawk), but most pads at most tracks all work. its a matter of what works WITH YOU. also be aware that the brake proportioning valve is NOT the same across years and this F/R bias difference can color any individual's opinions. ie a blue/blue on a '90 does not feel the same as blue/blue on a '99 (or a '96 for that matter).

personally, i've tried blues, blue/black, carbotechs xp12/xp10,carbotech xp12/xp12 , and dtc60s on my old 96 and my 99. i found i prefer the same pad all around and still have front-biased lockup in other-than-downhill braking zones. i tried almost a dozen pad compounds on my 350z (with stoptechs) and ended up with the raybestos ST43. haven't tried those on the miata but probably will. currently, i love the dtc60's all around - 70-80% of the initial bite of the blue's, no lockup, easy to modulate, and i find it easy to trail with them. as someone else mentioned, i am only getting 2 weekends out of them. they might make a 3rd, but i don't like running any pad near the backing plate - too much change in pedal travel. the carbo's bedding was annoying and they REALLY didn't like running on rotors that had any other pad run against them. even with the xp12/xp12 combo i still got 'spotting' of compound on the rotors (which causes a wicked shudder) and i hated the mondo pedal force required / ton of pedal travel. i found it difficult to get to threshold quickly with them, while the blues got there too quickly, leaving the dtc60's as my goldilocks.

ahm

[Rob Burgoon]

Yeah, DTC 60/30 on my ABS car still has too much rear bias.

[juliancates]

currently, i love the dtc60's all around - 70-80% of the initial bite of the blue's, no lockup, easy to modulate, and i find it easy to trail with them. as someone else mentioned, i am only getting 2 weekends out of them. they might make a 3rd, but i don't like running any pad near the backing plate - too much change in pedal travel. the carbo's bedding was annoying and they REALLY didn't like running on rotors that had any other pad run against them. even with the xp12/xp12 combo i still got 'spotting' of compound on the rotors (which causes a wicked shudder) and i hated the mondo pedal force required / ton of pedal travel. i found it difficult to get to threshold quickly with them, while the blues got there too quickly, leaving the dtc60's as my goldilocks.

ahm

So, for sake of comparison, what kind of life were you getting from the blues? I have them on the car currently, but am thinking of trying something with a little less initial bite, like say the DTC-60's. Ideally I'd like to get a little more life out of a race pad though, especially in a light momentum car. Do you run tracks that are particularly harsh on brakes?

[FTodaro]

I went an entire season on a set of blues that was 9 race weekends, although I do uses the guys bumper ahead of me to slow me down in the corners.

[trey]

Carbotechs I think are what you're asking for.

Thanks , I'll give them a try

[dstevens]

I went an entire season on a set of blues that was 9 race weekends, although I do uses the guys bumper ahead of me to slow me down in the corners.

I like to think of it as the guy in front loaning me his brakes for a corner.... Or 10.

[Adam Molaver]

So, for sake of comparison, what kind of life were you getting from the blues? I have them on the car currently, but am thinking of trying something with a little less initial bite, like say the DTC-60's. Ideally I'd like to get a little more life out of a race pad though, especially in a light momentum car. Do you run tracks that are particularly harsh on brakes?

i think i got about 3-4 weekends out of a blues. unlike others, i never had rotor life issues with them. they are tough on rotors if they are cold - if they get (and stay) hot, it is a non-issue. i typically ran two sets of front rotors a year with the blues, and same with the 60's. i change rotors when the little cracks can catch a fingernail or if any crack nears the outer edge of the rotor (within ~1/4"). i run at summit point and VIR mostly. i'm not sure where on the 'hard on brakes' spectrum they fall, but i will say i find it impossible to believe you could get 9 weekends out of any SM pad at either track and be competitive.

maybe the ST43 will last longer, maybe one of the PFC does. does anyone run PFC-01?

ahm

[ChrisA]

i think i got about 3-4 weekends out of a blues. unlike others, i never had rotor life issues with them. they are tough on rotors if they are cold - if they get (and stay) hot, it is a non-issue. i typically ran two sets of front rotors a year with the blues, and same with the 60's. i change rotors when the little cracks can catch a fingernail or if any crack nears the outer edge of the rotor (within ~1/4"). i run at summit point and VIR mostly. i'm not sure where on the 'hard on brakes' spectrum they fall, but i will say i find it impossible to believe you could get 9 weekends out of any SM pad at either track and be competitive.

maybe the ST43 will last longer, maybe one of the PFC does. does anyone run PFC-01?

ahm

I running the PFC-06 now and got about 10-12 weekends out of my first set. Ran primarily at VIR, but also hit the Glen and Roebling Road. On my second set now. Only got about 4 weekend out of the Carbos. No need to bed the PFCs either, which is nice.

[FTodaro]

With all this talk about brake pads I was about to put in another order. there is more than one compound for blue. I have always used the 9012 compound and one try the MT4? See below from Hawk.

Blue 9012 Medium/High torque and temperature compound with excellent brake modulation. #1 selling brake pad material for SCCA. Blue MT4 Medium/High torque and temperature compound with Medium/High initial bite. Brake pads designed for circle track cars under 2800 lbs without high deceleration rates.

[CARacer]

My recent experience with pads:
Started last year (my first) with Hawk Blues. Like someone here said, they were confidence-inspiring for a novice with the great bite. They were fun. The car already had some Blues on the rear and I don't know how many weekends they'd done. The fronts lasted four 10-session weekends. I did five weekends on the rears.

Then I tried the Hawk DTC60s. Not as much bite as the Blues, not as much fun. Maybe better modulation, but I'm not a good enough driver to comment on that. Overall feel was good.

After two weekends they had about half the pad material left, but after three or four more sessions I found myself almost to the backing plates with big chunks of pad material gone. Another racer gave me a set of DTC60s that he had put one weekend on. After about nine more sessions I was finding chunks of pad material in my wheels and brakes, and large areas of backing plate with no more pad. I will not use the DTC60s again.

Of course, the two weekends that my pads went unexpectedly were the only two I haven't brought spare pads to. I again had to scramble around to find whatever pads I could in the pits. Finally got a set of brand new Carbotechs and a set of barely-used-but-bedded-with-Carbotechs rotors. I don't like them. They seem to have very little bite and need a lot more pedal pressure.

The bigger problem is that, with Carbotechs on the front and DTC60s on the rear, my brake balance is screwed and the rear keeps trying to lock and get away from me under braking. If we had adjustable brake bias I'd crank a bunch more to the front, but all I can do is change pads. I got some Carbotechs to put on the rear for balance even though I don't like them on the front.

I will continue to experiment with different pads and have a set of the PFC 97s to try next, but so far my conclusion is I will go back to Hawk Blues on the front. On the rear I want something that lasts and that balances well with the front. Don't know what that should be yet.

Side-note: I've heard third- or fourth-hand that Brembo rotors are made of a higher quality metal and either last longer and/or crack less than others. Will switch to those as soon as I go through my existing supply.

[tony senese]

I went an entire season on a set of blues that was 9 race weekends, although I do uses the guys bumper ahead of me to slow me down in the corners.

THAT SHIZNIT IS FUNNY

[tburas56]

Cobalt
XR3 front
XR5 Rear

One set of rotors and pads this entire season. No thermal expansion, very little carbon in the pad, mostly ceramic materials which means the rotor last longer. No bedding process, just go.
they have a better bite temp range, cold pads bite just as hard as hot ones…..

ten races and they are still going strong

AWESOME pads...

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Cobalt
XR3 front
XR5 Rear

One set of rotors and pads this entire season. No thermal expansion, very little carbon in the pad, mostly ceramic materials which means the rotor last longer. No bedding process, just go.
they have a better bite temp range, cold pads bite just as hard as hot ones…..

ten races and they are still going strong

AWESOME pads...

+1,000,000

[NigelStu]

Cobalt
XR3 front
XR5 Rear

One set of rotors and pads this entire season. No thermal expansion, very little carbon in the pad, mostly ceramic materials which means the rotor last longer. No bedding process, just go.
they have a better bite temp range, cold pads bite just as hard as hot ones…..

ten races and they are still going strong

AWESOME pads...

Agreed. Similar experince as well.

XR4 in the rear is another option worth trying.



I may be slightly biased (check my sig), but its due to first trying many different pads and being faster (with less work) on Cobalts.

[Adam Molaver]

i think others have said something similar, but i think it bears repeating. until you are able to consistently USE the brakes, changing pads is likely a step in the wrong direction. the only way to know if you are consistently using them is data. i drove on blues for something like 3 years because i had so many things to learn, adding a new pad's characteristics to the mix would have been a setback in lap time, and most likely, confused me as to WHY i was going faster or slower. pad choice is unlikely to be a defining characteristic of your eventual lap time. once you get confident and comfortable with how a particular pad performs, and can consistently lay down similar laps - similar as it pertains to data, NOT necessarily lap time - THEN i'd consider switching to something else.

two laps with nearly identical lap times can be achieved in dramatically different fashion, and until you are aware of and consistently in control of the variables, changing pads only adds something else into the mix to confuse you. it doesn't take a whole lot of expertise to look at the speed traces on any of the data systems to see how much lap-to-lap variation you have in when you hit the brakes, how fast the transition is (should be a single sharp edged 'turn' in the trace), and if you are achieving a consistent level of deceleration (after the transition to brakes, a more-or-less straight line should be able to be drawn to your minimum speed - any deviation from that line indicates wavering decel rate == inconsistent braking).

the transition from throttle to brakes and then again from brakes back to throttle can be a huge time sink. my first year with data, i picked up nearly 1.5 seconds, and almost all of that was a) seeing/understanding/acting on inconsistent brake application, B ) throttle/brake and brake/throttle transition, and c) realizing being the king of the late brakers is almost never the fast way around. find someone who races at the same events you do who has data and compare, as often as you can. remember you're dealing with SMALL differences most of the time. think about it - a someone who is 2 seconds a lap faster than you on a 90 second course is...2.2% faster. not exactly earth shattering differences. being able to find/understand/execute the differences..a whole 'nother ball of wax

ahm