72 replies to this topic

[Keith Novak]

I'm just saying it's a combination of how much rubber is left on the contact patch and how hard the rubber is. You can have all the rubber in the world but if it's hard as a rock, or if it's perfectly cured but you're running on cords it won't work very well either way.

[davew]

I know, I was busting your chops.. But shaved Hoosiers are here and will become more visible at bigger races IMO...

Actually Jim, I don't think we will.

We brought 4 sets of shaved Hoosiers to Florida for Voytek. Ran 3 sets at Sebring and was marginally competitive. At Homestead we tested them back to back on Friday morning. Sticker unshaved vs sticker shaves. The unshaved tires were faster. For Friday afternoon, Saturday and Sunday mornings we ran the shaved. We ran the unshaved for the races. The only race we where really competitive in was the Sunday afternoon race, on 3 heat cycle unshaved. Other than checking toe before each session we made no changes to the car.

I do not have a theroy as to why we found this. But with a sample of one driver at 2 tracks over 4 races we found shaving to be detrimental to Hoosiers.

I do believe that Todd Buras was on heat cycle #9 on his tires

That is what I know
dave

[Jim Drago]

Dave
While I believe what you are saying.. It doesn't make much sense, granted I am no tire engineer. I think when we get to that big dyno in Wi, we will likely see shaved tires again? I know if nothing is done, several of us will have a few sets to try at the Sprints. I really don't know how to insure we don't, but if anyone has any realistic suggestions, I am on board with not allowing as it does nothing but increase the costs for all. It is not allowed now, but not enforceable either, so we will continue to see it.

Any ideas, post them up. Hoosier has said they will not shave the tires but others will.

Jim

[Johnny D]

Some type of Tire Impound?
J~

[Doug007]

Seems premature to start thinking up ways to enforce against tire shaving when there is no evidence that they are faster. The one data point that we have says they aren't any faster.

A lot of other classes run R6s and I haven't heard of them shaving them either. Running stickers for qualifying is the approach I hear about most often from other classes.

There are plenty of other known techniques that are known to improve lap times and raise the cost of racing to worry about!

[davew]

<<<I think when we get to that big dyno in Wi,>>>

Jim, my dyno isn't that big!!!

FYI, I heard from a reliable source that teh rains do not shave well at all. The tread is not stable enough to shave. Hopefully that will eliminate the need for intermediates.

[Rob Burgoon]

Dave
While I believe what you are saying.. It doesn't make much sense, granted I am no tire engineer. I think when we get to that big dyno in Wi, we will likely see shaved tires again? I know if nothing is done, several of us will have a few sets to try at the Sprints. I really don't know how to insure we don't, but if anyone has any realistic suggestions, I am on board with not allowing as it does nothing but increase the costs for all. It is not allowed now, but not enforceable either, so we will continue to see it.

Any ideas, post them up. Hoosier has said they will not shave the tires but others will.

Jim

Jim, if we can't enforce, we (the CRB letter writers) should seriously consider legalizing. The only way the unenforceable ban avoids increasing the costs for all is by excluding and penalizing the honest racers.

[Jim Drago]

I agree Rob, I don't see anyway around it.. Seems like a likely strategy would be shave, scrub them and put a light heat cycle in a practice session and then be ready to go with thin one session Hoosiers. By the time any official sees them, they will look like every other Hoosier.


Doug, if you could run wheels that were 1 lb plus lighter legally, would you? Well a 1 lb lighter tire is better than that The more testing done, the faster shaved Hoosiers will be IMO.. Especially at Road America when a few tenths separates most over 4 miles.

[Tom Sager]

Some competition tires don't have the same tread compound throughout the tread depth. Anyone know if the Hoosier has a consistent compund from core to top of the tread?

[Jim Drago]

According to Hoosier, yes it is the same compound all the way to cord. I asked that very question.

[Sean - MiataCage]

We need to legalize it and take it off the table..... We have come such a long way with getting the rules right we don't need anymore rules that can not be enforced. We are currently working on a tire cycler to put a heat cycle on shaved tires without putting them on the track. Could be a waste of time and money, but I guess we have to try. In 1.6 land out West here the weight of the shaved tire is worth investigating.

[LarryKing]

And the SCCA is wondering how to increase participation at nationals. Unless you've got a huge race budget you're just doing laps. Who wants to show up knowing they're field filler.

Not me.

Stupid (rhetorical) question - Wasn't the lack of shaving part of the rational for switching to Hoosier?

[James York]

Stupid (rhetorical) question - Wasn't the lack of shaving part of the rational for switching to Hoosier?

Yes, sort of. The Hoosiers will still help folks that don't prep/spend to the max by not having to shave vs. Toyos (no choice there).

The folks that spent shaving tires to pretty thin before, the additional cost of a shaving is not probably an issue.

[Jim Drago]

And the SCCA is wondering how to increase participation at nationals. Unless you've got a huge race budget you're just doing laps. Who wants to show up knowing they're field filler.

Not me.

Stupid (rhetorical) question - Wasn't the lack of shaving part of the rational for switching to Hoosier?

Not sure how the SCCA fixes this? If you are a field filler in SCCA, you will be a field filer at any competitive NASA race as well. SCCA regionals, well it depends... Some regionals are just as competitive as nationals?

We shaved Toyo's to less than 1/32 for the Runoffs... People will do what they can to gain an advantage. We(racers collectively) are the problem.

[LarryKing]

We(racers collectively) are the problem.

I'm just say'n the bar keeps going up until only a very few can compete. (The proverbial 20-30 douchebags - and I say that with all due respect)

I don't think it can be fixed either - same old problem for last 7-8 years.

Maybe the next 'spec' class can get it right.

[AJ Roderick]

And the SCCA is wondering how to increase participation at nationals. Unless you've got a huge race budget you're just doing laps. Who wants to show up knowing they're field filler.

Not me.

Stupid (rhetorical) question - Wasn't the lack of shaving part of the rational for switching to Hoosier?

Im a field filler and I still want to race nationals

[Jim Drago]

Maybe the next 'spec' class can get it right.

I think despite the fact that we all complain( myself included), none of like the costs involved. I think this Spec class got it pretty close to right and gets better every year. Sure things could be different, but not sure different is better either? The tighter we make the rules and the competition, the more small and expensive gains will show up.

[Charlie Hayes]

What about marking tires? You qualify on them you race on them....

Could make the runoffs fun with the week of qualifying.

[LarryKing]

I like the way Mr. Hayes thinks.

[Bench Racer]

We(racers collectively) are the problem.

& collectively issues can be solved.

Tom, started, Charlie added, & others would continue adding if they were not stifled during this process. &

EDIT:

Opp's, Dave Wheeler also shared his southern Hoosier data/info.