115 replies to this topic

[FTodaro]

With all the excitement today about cheating, I am not sure I know exactly how each of the organizations SCCA/ NASA deal with it beyond an immediate DQ.

I think there are two types of cheats the intentional and the unintentional, it may be hard to prove an unintentional but lets take the example we were told today you bought someones car and unknown to you its got illegal parts.

But what about the other case were its pretty clear the owner has a full understanding of his equipment and the problem is in no way anything other than an intended, but Opps, I got caught deal.

Is it all up to the discretion of the man in charge at the event? do they ever issue suspensions of car or driver for a future event or DQ from going to the Nationals or Runoffs?

I have to admit I have not studied the SCCA points system against your license maybe that answers it.

Personally being put in the hall of shame in front of all they guys I am trying to earn the respect of is a big enough deterrent for me, but what about the other consequences of accumulated points, and contingency money that may have been paid out. It seams that the problem is bigger than just getting a DQ.

[Andrew Charbonneau]

With all the excitement today about cheating, I am not sure I know exactly how each of the organizations SCCA/ NASA deal with it beyond an immediate DQ.

I think there are two types of cheats the intentional and the unintentional, it may be hard to prove an unintentional but lets take the example we were told today you bought someones car and unknown to you its got illegal parts.

But what about the other case were its pretty clear the owner has a full understanding of his equipment and the problem is in no way anything other than an intended, but Opps, I got caught deal.

Is it all up to the discretion of the man in charge at the event? do they ever issue suspensions of car or driver for a future event or DQ from going to the Nationals or Runoffs?

I have to admit I have not studied the SCCA points system against your license maybe that answers it.

Personally being put in the hall of shame in front of all they guys I am trying to earn the respect of is a big enough deterrent for me, but what about the other consequences of accumulated points, and contingency money that may have been paid out. It seams that the problem is bigger than just getting a DQ.

+1

[Glenn]

With all the excitement today about cheating, I am not sure I know exactly how each of the organizations SCCA/ NASA deal with it beyond an immediate DQ.

I think there are two types of cheats the intentional and the unintentional, it may be hard to prove an unintentional but lets take the example we were told today you bought someones car and unknown to you its got illegal parts.

But what about the other case were its pretty clear the owner has a full understanding of his equipment and the problem is in no way anything other than an intended, but Opps, I got caught deal.

Is it all up to the discretion of the man in charge at the event? do they ever issue suspensions of car or driver for a future event or DQ from going to the Nationals or Runoffs?

I have to admit I have not studied the SCCA points system against your license maybe that answers it.

Personally being put in the hall of shame in front of all they guys I am trying to earn the respect of is a big enough deterrent for me, but what about the other consequences of accumulated points, and contingency money that may have been paid out. It seams that the problem is bigger than just getting a DQ.

Ask Gorrilla what happens.........

[FTodaro]

Ask Gorrilla what happens.........

That was the only example I could think of but as I understood it that was not the first time and there was allot of other BS going on that weekend. But good point, a one year suspension is a pretty big deal, and appropriate under the right circumstances.

[Rob Burgoon]

Ask Gorrilla what happens.........

Wasn't that mostly for conduct on and off the track, not prep infractions?

[Glenn]

Wasn't that mostly for conduct on and off the track, not prep infractions?

Bottom line it was for the "tech" infraction. More to the point, the Sanctioning body did issue the penality and others are honoring that penality as well. Should we be issuing this type of penality for every infraction, pattern of behavior, or only for blatent willful infractions is a topic that will never see consencies! Im with the the Fla boys here, start picking some mid pack guys and do some of teh less invasive tech items and see what happens to the class . It will be better!

[KentCarter]

Ask subframe sammy....

[Alex Bolanos]

From the NASA CCR:


17.7 Class Rule Compliance
Each competition vehicle must conform to a published set of rules for its class. Any
competitor found to have qualified or raced a competition vehicle found to have
unauthorized modifications may be penalized. NASA Impound Inspectors will determine
legality of modifications to competition vehicles. Any modification(s) to performance
items, whether it is a performance advantage or not, will be termed “illegal,” and
subject to penalties. Performance items are those items that, if modified, could
potentially increase performance. For example, a missing headlight would not
necessarily be considered illegal, and normally, the competitor would be required to
make corrections without penalties. Class rules supersede rules found in the CCR
anytime that there is a conflict.


Can't find where the penalties are laid out but I would think that for an issue such as what happened in FL that the driver would lose all of their points for the year at a minimum....

[MPR22]

Ask subframe sammy....

^{Shcck Sammy
Shock Sammy
Control Arm Sammy}

[Glenn]

From the NASA CCR:


17.7 Class Rule Compliance
Each competition vehicle must conform to a published set of rules for its class. Any
competitor found to have qualified or raced a competition vehicle found to have
unauthorized modifications may be penalized. NASA Impound Inspectors will determine
legality of modifications to competition vehicles. Any modification(s) to performance
items, whether it is a performance advantage or not, will be termed “illegal,” and
subject to penalties. Performance items are those items that, if modified, could
potentially increase performance. For example, a missing headlight would not
necessarily be considered illegal, and normally, the competitor would be required to
make corrections without penalties. Class rules supersede rules found in the CCR
anytime that there is a conflict.


Can't find where the penalties are laid out but I would think that for an issue such as what happened in FL that the driver would lose all of their points for the year at a minimum....

The NASA folks can and do make immediate determinations that are generally non-negotiable. IE the NASA Championship event where decisions were made regarding several infractions.

[Bench Racer]

Wasn't that mostly for conduct on and off the track, not prep infractions?

Yes, while he was on probation for on track stuff from earlier in the week. The twelve months is for a RFA results for the race pre T8 contact.

[Scott McKay]

You really want your tech done at a regional level, I promise you that. A few years ago I had a qual race time at Nationals DQ'd in my Factory Five because the original builder had the fuel tank an inch too low, and I had to start from dead last in the championship race. Had that been found at a regional race, I would have fixed it. As it was, we still fixed it at the Nationals, but winning a race when starting from last is a lot to ask. Then again, had they not found it at the qual race, but found it after the main race, your entire race gets DQ'd, and that makes for a long, lonesome drive home.

All of that said, its kind of irksome to have people fail tech. I bring a 100% legal car to the track wanting to win, and beat the car half to death to try to do that, when in reality I don't have a prayer of winning. I also don't put much time into prep, so I guess I get what I deserve, but it's still frustrating. Once cams and heads start coming out of cars, that will be even more interesting I bet.

[Andrew Charbonneau]

Ask subframe sammy....

or shocking sammy

[Glenn]

You really want your tech done at a regional level, I promise you that. A few years ago I had a qual race time at Nationals DQ'd in my Factory Five because the original builder had the fuel tank an inch too low, and I had to start from dead last in the championship race. Had that been found at a regional race, I would have fixed it. As it was, we still fixed it at the Nationals, but winning a race when starting from last is a lot to ask. Then again, had they not found it at the qual race, but found it after the main race, your entire race gets DQ'd, and that makes for a long, lonesome drive home.

All of that said, its kind of irksome to have people fail tech. I bring a 100% legal car to the track wanting to win, and beat the car half to death to try to do that, when in reality I don't have a prayer of winning. I also don't put much time into prep, so I guess I get what I deserve, but it's still frustrating. Once cams and heads start coming out of cars, that will be even more interesting I bet.

EXACTLY! At the NASA championships a car was found noncompilant that SHOULD have been found at a local level. The owner never knew the car was non-compliant as he did'nd build/modify it. Yes they should have known, but how many times has a TECH guy looked at YOUR heaterbox I bet NEVER, and its a SIMPLE tech item.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

EXACTLY! At the NASA championships a car was found noncompilant that SHOULD have been found at a local level. The owner never knew the car was non-compliant as he did'nd build/modify it. Yes they should have known, but how many times has a TECH guy looked at YOUR heaterbox I bet NEVER, and its a SIMPLE tech item.

It's a .5 second a lap modification IMO HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Bench Racer]

Once cams and heads start coming out of cars, that will be even more interesting I bet.

That has happen at the SCCA june Sprints & it will happen again in a few weeks. The drivers know it & they will (have been to date) be legal. There have been a couple DQ's for what I'll call minor issues. Minnor issues that don't meet the rules continue to be illegal.

[Glenn]

It's a .5 second a lap modification IMO HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

.00005 second/lap but the effing rules require them so we looked? NEVER in a million years expected to find one missing afterall what would the point be in removing it.

[plane]

As a new person, I struggle with this. I bought a car that had 2011 SCCA and NASA log books, had run lots of races etc and discovered (after removing the glove box for, weight reasons, that the blower was missing. The car was overweight so no real advantage, but that is such a simple thing to have missed.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

As a new person, I struggle with this. I bought a car that had 2011 SCCA and NASA log books, had run lots of races etc and discovered (after removing the glove box for, weight reasons, that the blower was missing. The car was overweight so no real advantage, but that is such a simple thing. I have had 2 different people work on the car and no one has noticed anything out of compliance, but then again, I am not about tear the engine down, just to make sure - at least not until I am no longer in last place.

My first car I ever bought, had lots of illegal mods on it, as I found them, I removed them. thats all you can really do unless you have the time and budget to go over the whole car. I have said this before and I will say it again. Buy your car from a reputable source unless you are gonna build one for yourself. With my first car I ran at the font of the mid pack, I even had ignorant illegal issues, liek the fog light holes where wide open, I didnt know any better. found all sort of blantant illegality with the car, over the course of the year. When I sold that car the only thing that I had not redone was the diff, and drive shaft. So by the end it was at the least 99% legal. If you get found with something illegal in that car you just bought you just correct it nobody here is gonna label you a cheater for that!

[Jim Drago]

That has happen at the SCCA june Sprints & it will happen again in a few weeks. The drivers know it & they will (have been to date) be legal. There have been a couple DQ's for what I'll call minor issues. Minnor issues that don't meet the rules continue to be illegal.

can you define "minor issues" I only remember one DQ at the Sprints in Sm and not sure I would call that infraction "minor"