115 replies to this topic

[Keith Andrews]

I almost didn't want to watch the video when I saw the starting position of the dogs. The thought of you and Jamie spooning in Savanna had me going. You surprised me AC.

[plane]

So I am thinking about this heater core issue. There are rules that really affect cost and performance (wheel weights, suspension measurements, bores, brake sizes etc..) then there are weird rules that have almost zero affect on cost or performance, as long as total weight is OK. So why is a heater core a big issue? I know it is because it is a rule and has to be followed, but why the rule in the first place? It seems we have some overly technical/non-performance rule that take time away from officials being able to check the real performance enhancing cheats.

I am all for following the rules (and really get upset at people who perposefully run SM with turn signal vents and louvered headlight covers), but fewer rules are easier to enforce then more and some of our rules seem like legacies of a long time ago.

[James York]

So I am thinking about this heater core issue. There are rules that really affect cost and performance (wheel weights, suspension measurements, bores, brake sizes etc..) then there are weird rules that have almost zero affect on cost or performance, as long as total weight is OK. So why is a heater core a big issue? I know it is because it is a rule and has to be followed, but why the rule in the first place? It seems we have some overly technical/non-performance rule that take time away from officials being able to check the real performance enhancing cheats.

I am all for following the rules (and really get upset at people who perposefully run SM with turn signal vents and louvered headlight covers), but fewer rules are easier to enforce then more and some of our rules seem like legacies of a long time ago.

In a nutshell, for simplicity sake the rules say what you are allowed to do. The default in our ruleset is not do anything you want, but limit it to whatever is spelled out in the GCR.

Your post hit the nail on the head..." then there are weird rules that have almost zero affect on cost or performance,..." You said almost zero. Competition is fierce in SM, if it's slightly seen as a gain in performance you'll have everybody making all sorts of unauthorized changes to get that 1/10% advantage.

The rules are simple enough and it doesn't lead to "interpetation" of somone's idea of what helps performance. Your issue is a heater core, another fellow might want to remove the factory dash, then next guy something else minor .... Then what? You really get a tech nightmare because nobody knows what non-performance modification can and can't be done.

You got 3 choices
1) Put your parts back in
2) Write the CRB for a rule change to permit removal of parts
3) Leave as is and take your chances that it will never bite you.

[Jamz14]

One possible reason for the heater core being a big deal is weight distribution. Granted, probably not the intention of the spec body, but if removed, you have changed the weight balance. Minor yes, but if minor to remove, then minor to leave it in.......so leave it in and move on.

[LarryKing]

The actual reason for retaining the heater core is the original spec was based on the SCCA showroom stock rulebook. The rules have become somewhat perverted over time.

[Jim Drago]

Someone could always send in a letter asking it to be allowed to be removed. I ALWAYS run a heater core as I like having a defrost.. But does seem pointless to leave it in if you bypass it anyway

[davew]

As a former member of the SMAC, I wrote a lot of the rules that are currently in print. I have had to explain this several times and my best example is as follows.

The rules are set as a speed limit. You can do anything you want until you reach the limit and then you have to slow down and maintain that speed. SM rules are written the same way, you do all the things listed. But when you get to the limit, you have to stop modifying the car or you are illegal. Remember 56mph in a 55 zone is illegal, even if no cop catches you.

Heater system components are really a bad example. They are required for good reason. We race in the rain, defrosters really help visibility. IF, heater components where allowed to be removed, we would then have to allow ducting to be fabricated and blowers to be installed. And there are lots of people who would spend thou$and$ of dollars to save 10 pounds in the front half of the car. You can argue cost vs benefit, but to some people no cost is too great.

Heater cores are allowed to be bypassed because most cage designs would make it very difficult to change a leaking heater core, So bypassing has been legal since the very beginning. But removal has always been illegal. Sometimes logic is used. Many years ago we specificly allowed the removal of the horn, but up untill that point, the horn had to be there.

Local tech around here is getting better. At the Blackhawk National they checked everyones master switch as they exited the scales. They have checked rotor dimensions and alternator voltage. Most races have a fuel check. I consider this a vast improvement over inspecting my socks and asking for my shop manual!

I seem to remember the SMAC making a list of non-invasive items that could be inspected easily by impound. These where designed to find many of these "weinie" items. It included the horn and battery voltage. But also included some basic things like, turn on the blower and see if it makes noise, basic roll cage design (this was when the 2 door bar rule was first implimented), sway bar measurements, air box visual inspection, etc. If a reference guide was created, and one tech inspecter from each region was assigned to look at 2 cars after each session, most of the se infractions could be found in a 10 minute, non-invasive lookover.

Just my opinion
Dave

[William Keeling]

I use it as an extra radiator and defroster

[James York]

I use it as an extra radiator and defroster

I thought you looked thinner the last I saw you. That sweatbox must be working for you!

[KentCarter]

The actual reason for retaining the heater core is the original spec was based on the SCCA showroom stock rulebook. The rules have become somewhat perverted over time.

It costs nothing to leave it in. It costs money to take it out. This class was founded on the idea of low cost, driver-skill oriented racing. That has become somewhat perverted over time, too.

[dstevens]

It costs nothing to leave it in. It costs money to take it out. This class was founded on the idea of low cost, driver-skill oriented racing. That has become somewhat perverted over time, too.

Blowers and heater cores? Are you guys shitting me? The low cost ship sailed, long, long ago. Bang for the buck, maybe. And deep competition at every level in the field. But a $30k car class with at least that to run a national season isn't low cost in my book. The Runoff costs alone are likely $10k for a front runner and that's not counting a rental. For that kind of dough you can do an IMCA or Pro Series program and maybe make some dough. But, you're stuck only turning left......

[john mueller]

Like I said before I'm researching how NASA handles these kind of things... I'm on vacation next week so give me some time yo.

[Jim Drago]

Blowers and heater cores? Are you guys shitting me? The low cost ship sailed, long, long ago. Bang for the buck, maybe. And deep competition at every level in the field. But a $30k car class with at least that to run a national season isn't low cost in my book. The Runoff costs alone are likely $10k for a front runner and that's not counting a rental. For that kind of dough you can do an IMCA or Pro Series program and maybe make some dough. But, you're stuck only turning left......

Do you mind if I delete that post.. I really don't like adding those numbers up

[William Keeling]

Do you mind if I delete that post.. I really don't like adding those numbers up

so how much higher are the real numbers (2, 3 or 4 times his)?

[Jamz14]

Not an expert in illegal mods because I don't look to mod illegally, but it seems that the real performance advantages are in cams, cranks, fly wheels, and ECUs. If true, is looking for heater cores, kill switches working, and plates going to impact the sophisticated rule maximizer? Isn't there, or couldn't there be, an easy ECU testing device? The ECU is very accessable. And checking Cams would seem to be fairly easy too. Cranks and flywheels much harder. But, if there was a guaranteed one intrusive inspection a year at a random event, on a randomly selected sample of cars ( and maybe the points front runner automatically ), wouldn't this do a lot to quell these conversations and ideas that everyone is cheating?

I can hear the arguments now that this is a low cost entry class and guys don't want to do this. But I agree with DStevens, the idea that this is a low cost fun class seems to be naive. And as Drago and Wheeler have pointed out, if you treat this as just a fun class and aren't looking to this as a professional class, which requires professional equipment, builds, and tuning, then you don't have a prayer of running at the front. So, if all of this is true, then guys will need to get used to techs that are occasionally at a high level. And furthermore, standardization of tech should be a big concern to the governing bodies. Seriously, how hard can it be to develop and implement a procedure and standard for tech?

Am I being naive, unreasonable?

[Jim Drago]

I spent more than in 06... horrible year. I wasnt competitive, thought I was, but wasn't. Should have watched in 06.
07 wrote off a car on test day..
08 was my best year to date I came and watched Blake and Rampelberg run my cars
09-11, I have spent less than half of what budgeted numbers... ( not counting lost work)

[William Keeling]

I spent more than in 06... horrible year. I wasnt competitive, thought I was, but wasn't. Should have watched in 06.
07 wrote off a car on test day..
08 was my best year to date I came and watched Blake and Rampelberg run my cars
09-11, I have spent less than half of what budgeted numbers... ( not counting lost work)

it that just the 5 days? I would count all the testing, development and getting the invite.

what is your guess on the gorilla, pdaddy and the granite man?

[Jim Drago]

I don't know on the first.. The second two are less that number as well..

[William Keeling]

I am over spending and under performing

[LarryKing]

Am I being naive, unreasonable?

I'm not saying you're being either.

SCCA workers are volunteers, and this is amateur racing. Do we have the level of tech you described for all classes. If so, where do we find the necessary personnel who will volunteer that kind of time. If not, why not? Should SM receive special treatment above, say, improved touring? (I kinda think it's perceived by other classes that we already do get our way most of the time.)

It may be more feasible for NASA to hire more tech crews, but I imagine it will impact entry fees.

There are entry level pro series if that is what you aspire too.