207 replies to this topic

[MPR22]

I would like a civil debate discussing the pros and cons of bump drafting in SM. if you are an SCCA steward please chime in, don't sit on the sidelines. NASA allows it SCCA doesn't. I believe the SCCA has two issues with bump drafting as it has been explained to me by a friend; safety and competitve advantage.

[Jim Boemler]

In many classes safety could be a real issue, so I understand SCCA's stance on it. After all, they can't have different rules for different classes -- or could they? The SM is nearly ideal for bump-drafting, which isn't hard to do safely. In my area we had a couple of years where the stewards turned a blind eye to it, and I'm not aware of a single incident.

I can't say I understand the competitive advantage aspect, though. It's not like some drivers are allowed to, and others aren't. It might be true that some would prefer not to, but I know lots of drivers who would prefer not to be passed, and most racing incidents do happen during passing.

[Rob Burgoon]

The competitive issue was explained to me as a problem in mixed classes. Miatas pushing each other past other cars whose bumpers don't line up. Also, in the extreme case you could hire a T1 car to push you down every straight.

[AJ Roderick]

Also, in the extreme case you could hire a T1 car to push you down every straight.

I have a good onboard shot of that actually.....


Question: If NASA allows it, and SCCA doesn't, why have I, personally, never seen SCCA penalize for it? I have been the pushee and pusher in SCCA races, but never heard anything from stewards.

[MazdaSteve]

We had a number of SMs given furled black flags this weekend at TWS at the double rational for bump drafting.

[Jim Boemler]

The competitive issue was explained to me as a problem in mixed classes. Miatas pushing each other past other cars whose bumpers don't line up. Also, in the extreme case you could hire a T1 car to push you down every straight.

That makes sense. Seems like it could be solved by a drivers agreement before the race, though -- at least in run groups with only one class.

[svvs]

Question: If NASA allows it, and SCCA doesn't, why have I, personally, never seen SCCA penalize for it? I have been the pushee and pusher in SCCA races, but never heard anything from stewards.

I hate to say this, but "it depends."

In the MARRS series at one point, they decided bump drafting was bad and I think they taped ketchup packets to the front of people's cars....if the packet broke, you were in trouble. (note I was never there, but there was some pretty lively discussion about it.)

At the Pro-IT race at NJMP I bump drafted a few times going down the front straight, right under the starter stand, in front of timing and scoring. No comment from anyone.

I think in our region it's kind of worked out as follows: It's "ok", as long as both parties are ok with it. If someone protested it, there would be an issue.

[Neil O]

I'm assuming we are talking bumping on straights....

You work all lap and get a run on a competitor but, you know it's a small run and not enough to complete a clean pass.

Do you
a) lift and stay in the draft and lose everything you've worked for
pull out and try a low percentage pass that most likely will slow both cars down
c) bump draft and push both cars forward

or

d) push both forward by lifting briefly before contact is made. So the pushed car doesn't move...bump drafting without the bump.
We weren't bump drafting we were just really close.............


I wish we could just bump. I think it's often safer than some of the moves it encourages if your stewards are serious about no contact at all.

[Mike Collins]

While not official by any means. Some have adopted the practice that if:

a) the front cars becomes unsettled or

b ) the front car projects off the rear car

then the contact is illegal because it is truly contact at that point in time

However if:

c) the front and rear car are running in lock step (drafting) no bump, but there may be contact, then that has been over looked.

By no means am I saying that it is acceptable. I am just commenting that it has been overlooked.

PS - They tried the ketchup packet thing, I threw a fit and threatend all kinds of paperwork and as the driver rep I told my drivers to get in their cars and ignore the request.

[Jim Drago]

I'll try to address a few things above...

First.. Yours truly has been the recipient of two bump drafting penalties... Sebring 2006 , 5 position penalty for two bump drafts called in and 2 position penalty at Hallet in 2007 for bump drafting. So yes it happens..

Competitive advantage...
Of course it is a competitive advantage, if it wasn't, we would not do it. All the stuff about not being able to pass, so you bump etc.. BS! Just lift and fall in line if you can't pass ( not what I do, but lets call a spade a spade) If No one ever bump drafted, the racing wouldn't be any worse IMO.. The guy who follows to the letter and does not bump draft is at a distinct Disadvantage at tracks like Atlanta, Road America, Sebring and any other track with long straights.

Other reasons for not allowing it.. I SEE WAY TOO many people crash drafting, not bump drafting. More than half of all that bump draft in SM have NO idea what they are doing. If you are going to hit someone in what amounts to a small collision, YOU NEED TO GO AROUND. I have seen "bump drafting" incidents that breaks diff housings. Now, if you ask every SM driver, they ALL know what they are doing. If done right, it is very safe, done wrong accidents and damage can occur.

I bump draft all the time with teamates or competitors to try to get away from other competitors. I do it selfishly to help myself. That being said, if it went completely away, i don't think the racing would suffer all that much.

Jim

[LarryKing]

Other reasons for not allowing it.. I SEE WAY TOO many people crash drafting, not bump drafting. More than half of all that bump draft in SM have NO idea what they are doing. If you are going to hit someone in what amounts to a small collision, YOU NEED TO GO AROUND

+1, I'd rather pass than bump

[HoneyBadger - BrianW]

For me bump drafting is as much fun to do, as it is trying to use it to a competitive advantage. I race SM because the racing is close and fierce. There is nothing closer and more fierce, than pushing another competitor around a third person you are both trying to pass. I get that people are stupid about it and hit cars way too hard. I don't have a perfect answer for how you dis-allow that, but still keep bump drafting. I just think its a fun aspect of the sport that I don't want to see go away.

[pat slattery]

Bump drafting is standard operating procedure for some SM team, especially when qualifying at Road America

[Lin]

Thanks to the guy who at Sebring crashed into the back of my car (in the name of bump drafting?) on the back straight when I was breaking in a new motor and a little down on power, my car is a little bent. 3 hard smacks in the rear...on the other hand at Daytona, it is clear the hooked up cars were faster. I don't have any issue with it as long as the front car gives a hand signal to connect. I would say for rookie drivers, this might not be something all are comfortable with so it should be by mutual agreement

[Jim Drago]

Bump drafting is standard operating procedure for ALL SM teams, especially when qualifying at Road America

I corrected that for you.. Even though you meant us It is everyone including us, and the Sprints will be no different.

[Mike Asselta]

First.. Yours truly has been the recipient of two bump drafting penalties... Sebring 2006 , 5 position penalty for two bump drafts called in and 2 position penalty at Hallet in 2007 for bump drafting. So yes it happens..

Jim - you should not be allowed to bump at Hallett. It should be fine for everyone else. It must have been a just penalty. I for one, have never been penalized.

[suck fumes]

As someone who has gotten penalized numerous times I will say this: All regions need to be consistent, honestly I don't care if it's allowed or not, but when you race in one state and get a black flag then go to another state and do it right in front of stewards and they are cheering you on that's messed up! If SCCA frowns upon it then make it consistent across the country!!!!! The crazy thing is no matter where the runoffs are bump drafting is fine but then when you go to a national race during the yr at the same track you get penalized for it.....really?!?

[Jim Boemler]

Seems to me that as long as you know what the rule is for a specific race, it's OK -- no real need for every race to be run the same. I'd say that if you're racing out of your home territory, you should just ask in advance. It would be even be even better if all officials did what they're authorized to: run the event exactly per the rules, except as noted in the supps. The only real problem is when the officials say they'll do one thing, and do another.

[Ron Alan]

My issue is not yes or no...it's being consistent with enforcement(if at all). We raced for 2 years with zero enforcement or penalty...hell, our region champ had a bulls-eye on his bumper with the words "push gentle".

So the first race this year we get asked in impound(after qual)if we made contact on the front straight with another car...said yes maybe. The other driver said yes(we pushed him). So, after just setting pole for our first time by .9 sec(clean lap...no help) we were penelized 2 spots Apparently 2012 is the year in SFR they are going to crack down?? Got asked the same question after the 2nd race that weekend(we were the pushee this time)and both drivers said no...done...what could they do? Have bumper stickers if anyone would like one...Bump&Deny

Don't get me wrong...we will follow the rules, but to be the example after 2 years of was a bit frustrating.

[Jim Boemler]

That would suck, Ron.