207 replies to this topic

[svvs]

Spec Pinata?

that's on a good day.

the improved touring forum refers to us as "jelly beans". I think one conversation went: "so I came around big bend, and all I see are jelly beans scattered all around. It looked like an easter basket for crying out loud".

the corner workers usually just get yellow flags ready and then radio traffic gets busy with contact reports and four off reports. If you ever get the chance, offer some beers up to the corner workers at the end of the day and listen to their stories. Some of those guys are more excited to be there helping out than the drivers are to be there racing. It's a good time, and they are very appreciative.

[MazdaSteve]

Two marginally slower cars working the draft together to maintain pace with a faster car?

[MazdaSteve]

When I am not in the car I am one of those corner workers. Everyone looks forward to Big Bore, SRF and SM because that's where all the action is...

[Bench Racer]

Seneca, I'm backing out of this bump drafting communication after the following comment. You know the rules therefore every time you contact a car (bump draft) your not playing within the rules. If the Chief Steward & the flag person were inclined to be proactive they would insert the no contact rule in the supps with a fare warning that there will be no furled black flags, waving black flag only the first time contact is viewed. Spec Miata drivers are fast learners.

[Rob Burgoon]

I just think it is a bit duplicitous for people on the forum to throw others under the bus for "cheating" when we are not following the rules ourselves.

Nuff said.

Nice try Mr. Passive. In my region it's been announced that bump drafting will be ignored by officials. So, open season, fair for all.

Unless you install pressure sensors (ketchup or otherwise) the parity issue is that some will push and not be catch-able while the honest racers suffer.

[Keith Novak]

Unless you install pressure sensors (ketchup or otherwise) the parity issue is that some will push and not be catch-able while the honest racers suffer.

And the unscrupulous driver or their crew will take advantade of it by discretely popping everyone elses ketchup packets in impound.

[Brian Ghidinelli]

the improved touring forum refers to us as "jelly beans". I think one conversation went: "so I came around big bend, and all I see are jelly beans scattered all around. It looked like an easter basket for crying out loud".

I know we have this reputation, but name a single closely-matched, highly-competitive race series with large fields where this doesn't happen? The closest I can come to is the professionalism of Aussie V8 Supercars... but even they get turned around.

[Randy Thieme]

I'm a part-time corner worker in SCCA/Oregon Region. The local stewards do not like it and if they turn a blind eye it's about being frustrated to stop it rather than tacit endorsement. In Oregon the topic of bump-drafting is frequently brought up in the morning worker meetings, particularly for national races. I can't claim that written contact reports for bump-drafting are filed on a regular basis but they're always called in over the radio to race control.

My personal belief is the rules should be changed to allow it but only by mutual consent, either the drivers agreeing ahead of time or using a hand signal. Bump drafting without consent would still be treated as contact. But that's not what the GCR says and until then the rules are the rules.

Yes, corner workers do look forward to SM and SRF but not always from a mayhem point of view. SM and SRF always offer the best, tightest racing and corner workers are like any other race fan. Wings and things are often the most dreaded because blue-flagging is the most difficult. The speed differences can be significant and it's sometimes difficult to tell cars apart when they're coming head-on at a distance. If it's raining the SRF's always have multiple spins but the SM's can put on a clean race even in the rain.

The book "Competition Car Aerodynamics" by Simon McBeath has a section where the affects of drafting were studied using a wind tunnel. The affect of drafting on both drafter and draftee was analyzed by looking at how the coefficient of drag (Cd) of each car changed as the drafting distance was altered from 3500 to 0 millimeters. The study confirmed the Cd for both cars goes down as the drafting distance is closed. After around 500mm the Cd of the front car went back up slightly but the Cd of the rear car continued to go down. I'm not offering this as an endorsement of bump drafting, just saying there is scientific evidence to support everyone's intuition - it gives the fastest draft.

[Mark McCallister]

Of course bump drafting should require mutual consent. Seems obvious. Unexpected deliberate contact of any form should be protestable.

I got the furled black at Roebling once when I and another slow car were bump drafting coming onto the front straight just trying to lose ground slower to the front runners. We stopped but it took me an entire lap to stop laughing! Couple weeks ago at Daytona things got busy coming out of the infield once and I missed a shift...wonderful soul behind me pushed me back up to speed instead of leaving me in the dust which by rights he should have done (it was early in an enduro). Certainly that guy deserved a beer from me and not a penalty from the stewards (not that he got one).

It boggles my mind a bit that mutually consenting pushing can result in a steward's penalty when the same rules expect you to launch a protest at your own expense if you think somebody left a restrictor plate out... Or maybe we could just get a Push-To-Pass button?

[Rob Burgoon]

I'm a part-time corner worker in SCCA/Oregon Region. The local stewards do not like it and if they turn a blind eye it's about being frustrated to stop it rather than tacit endorsement.

Oh, they stopped it in socal. They stopped it and the SM group stopped showing up.

They have since changed tactics.

[Rob Burgoon]

It boggles my mind a bit that mutually consenting pushing can result in a steward's penalty when the same rules expect you to launch a protest at your own expense if you think somebody left a restrictor plate out...

It's worse than that, unless I am mistaken you have to psychically know that the person has a plate problem and protest them something like an hour before the race. I believe you're only allowed to throw paper regarding on-course conduct in that 30minute window after the race.

[Jim Boemler]

Oh, they stopped it in socal. They stopped it and the SM group stopped showing up.

They have since changed tactics.

You're saying that a significant part of the SM group down there would rather not race at all than not bump-draft? That's just too weird.

[Rob Burgoon]

You're saying that a significant part of the SM group down there would rather not race at all than not bump-draft? That's just too weird.

You see, we have this amazing thing called "NASA".

[Alberto]

Other reasons for not allowing it.. I SEE WAY TOO many people crash drafting, not bump drafting. More than half of all that bump draft in SM have NO idea what they are doing. If you are going to hit someone in what amounts to a small collision, YOU NEED TO GO AROUND. I have seen "bump drafting" incidents that breaks diff housings. Now, if you ask every SM driver, they ALL know what they are doing. If done right, it is very safe, done wrong accidents and damage can occur.

I bump draft all the time with teamates or competitors to try to get away from other competitors. I do it selfishly to help myself. That being said, if it went completely away, i don't think the racing would suffer all that much.

Jim

^THIS

Last season, 3 idiots decided to "introduce me" to bump drafting by ramming my bumper instead of going around me. One asshole did it to me going into a corner at T4 at Laguna. I almost spun. He did it again going up the hill after 5 for some idiotic reason instead of going around me.

Another idiot did on the straight at Thunderhill. The car did not feel very good getting pushed. I thought I was going to get spun - while in 4th gear at speed 4 feet from the wall. When I went to talk to said idiot he responded "don't worry. If anything happened to you, I'd (he) get blamed." The thought of the possible damage that he could have caused to me or my car by the spin from his "bump draft" never seemed to enter his skull.

Mind you, that was my rookie season and I was running a fluorescent orange rookie plate on the rear.



Keep the no bump rule. If you guys want to bump, bump only people you know and have agreed to do it with. If you bump me, I will file a complaint. I have no qualms about it.

[Jim Boemler]

Sounds like you've experienced bumping done badly, Alberto. Have you ever felt it done properly? You (the lead car) shouldn't feel any jarring, or upsetting of the car; at most you should feel a slight acceleration, like you had 20 more horsepower for a second or two. What you felt probably wasn't bump-drafting, but ramming -- which should never be done.

[Rob Burgoon]

Sounds like you've experienced bumping done badly, Alberto. Have you ever felt it done properly? You (the lead car) shouldn't feel any jarring, or upsetting of the car; at most you should feel a slight acceleration, like you had 20 more horsepower for a second or two. What you felt probably wasn't bump-drafting, but ramming -- which should never be done.

Agreed, it's usually a very springy rubber band kind of affair as the bumpers load up and release. They are 5mph bumpers, right? If someone approaches with more than 5mph difference, they are probably doing it wrong.

[Keith Andrews]

[granracing]

Interesting topic.

My first experience bump drafting someone else wasn't all that wonderful. Often saw others do it and wanted to give it a try. Was at Mid Ohio, caught up to a friend on the back straight, oooops. Got sucked in a bit faster than anticipated and gave him a pretty good wack. If I had done that to someone else, I'm sure the paddock conversation would have gone a bit differently.

A friend of mine got "bumped" pretty good during her first race by the leader. (She wasn't interfeering with his path; just normal stuff.) Haven studied the GCR, she wasn't expecting it and caught her off guard. After the session, she got out of the car..."He hit me right here!!" LMAO

What about with mixed classes? Having run in ITB for the past several years, the front SSM drivers and I often help each other especally at the Glen. Bump drafting only okay within the same class? What happens when someone bumps another car that's more fragile? (Thinking of my friend in his Audi bumping some type of prod car and cracking the rear bumper.)

I agree with others in that it needs to be communicated to drivers what will be tolerated. I often wonder if it'll be accepted or will result in a penalty. How do you go about determining if it'll be accepted? Asking the Stewards seems like they'd always say no to protect themselves. Talking to other participants yields in varying answers.

[svvs]

Dave: I tried helping one of the ITB volvo's down the back straight at WGI when I used to run SSM......it probably looked pretty comical. I have the video somewhere.

Long story short, that one didn't really work out. I wound up passing anyway.

Bump drafting is of no benefit if the two cars get their speed in different ways......Once a SSB civic pushed me down the front straight at Pocono after I passed her in the chicane.....that was super scary because of the speed difference.

If the "pusher" has more than 3 mph or so on the car in front, and can get around......just go around. you're just hurting yourself pushing them.

Also, I have a general rule....if you're in the number boards or getting really close, no more pushing. I wouldn't want a shove right when I go for brakes, and I personally don't want to be that close to the guy in front of me at that moment.

A lot of people have said the guys in the middle of the pack probably push each other too much and would be better off passing. Since I'm still one of those middle guys, I would say that's true. If you're in a train of three and can push your buddy in the middle past the car in front of him....go for it. That's probably a better option than going three wide into the turn and everyone losing ground to the guys behind.

If it's your buddy in front of you, and you're trying to catch someone else a few seconds ahead, maybe give a push. If you have more than 3 or 4 mph on him coming out of the corner onto a straight though....make the pass and go get the other guy.

[DrDomm]

Put an "X" on the bumber if you don't want to play?