68 replies to this topic

[LarryKing]

(Disclaimer: before others start misinterpreting my intent or flat-out put words in my mouth, the following is my perceived observations, not necessarily my personal experience.)

Ask a stupid question, get a. . .

I think many who invested in 1.6 cars, prior to the 99+ being eligible in SM, believe their cars became instantly obsolete once the 99+ was added. And no competition adjustment will change that. People either cut their losses and built a 99 or lowered their expectation., Call it loss of hopefulness. (How'd I do Dave?)

Like I previously posted this has been beat to death for years.

Frankly I don't buy the "No top prep 1.6s show up" argument. No amount of from the tub up building, painted control arms and polished cam covers, latest carbon fiber cockpit geegaws, changes the finite HP:Wt ratio, torque curve, brake size, and set-up adjustablity of the 1.6. Anyone on the Runoffs level already knows the max performance potential. It's as good as it's going to get, and SCCA/NASA have made the cars as equal as they can. Some are just more equal then others.

I have seen the future and it's called SM5. Personally I think the class should be called SMX5. I hope to build one in a couple years.

[Jim Drago]

(Disclaimer: before others start misinterpreting my intent or flat-out put words in my mouth, the following is my perceived observations, not necessarily my personal experience.)

Ask a stupid question, get a. . .

I think many who invested in 1.6 cars, prior to the 99+ being eligible in SM, believe their cars became instantly obsolete once the 99+ was added. And no competition adjustment will change that. People either cut their losses and built a 99 or lowered their expectation., Call it loss of hopefulness. (How'd I do Dave?)

Like I previously posted this has been beat to death for years.

Frankly I don't buy the "No top prep 1.6s show up" argument. No amount of from the tub up building, painted control arms and polished cam covers, latest carbon fiber cockpit geegaws, changes the finite HP:Wt ratio, torque curve, brake size, and set-up adjustablity of the 1.6. Anyone on the Runoffs level already knows the max performance potential. It's as good as it's going to get, and SCCA/NASA have made the cars as equal as they can. Some are just more equal then others.

I have seen the future and it's called SM5. Personally I think the class should be called SMX5. I hope to build one in a couple years.

Ohh you poor Moose All Mr D likes to say, You have drank the cool aid, I think you drank the entire container on eh 1.6 propaganda machine. As you said beat to death, regardless of how many wins and where it wins, you are convinced your car can't compete and the cars are inferior and thus steadily reducing the price of your cars.


As for SM, great class, great idea.. Just like some other fledgling Miata class a few years ago Except the parts and cars are substantially higher. SM5 will run the same course as Sm, just different speed bumps and never as big or successful as SM. Just like SM, once it gains popularity , many of us will move into the class. When the class starts attracting guys who run full prep programs, the same complaints will start to surface.. So and so ruined the class, so and so is cheating as his car is way faster than all the rest. It is the same vicious cycle, just a little different. I guarantee if some of the top guys in SM started full SM5 efforts, we would kill the class before it even gained any momentum. You think my "friend" from the Northeast would show up with the same car as most campaign? This is RACING, this is always the circle and always will be

[LarryKing]

SM5 does have a sealed motor. I like that.

I said it was a stupid answer (also said it was the perception).

JD, do you disagree that the top national drivers know the max they can get from a 1.6, and that's why they campaign a 99, at least as long as the RO is at RA?

Propaganda... Hmmmm, interesting word choice.

[MPR22]

Moose my question for David was for him to answer.

Jim is spot on in his reply about any class that becomes popular.

All: If you think a race car is an investment and you expect a return on that investment you have missed something. If you even expect to get your initial investment back choose another hobby. If you expect to have fun, meet new people, be ridiculed for bad driving, called funny names by Von C then you have found what you are looking for.

Mr. "Self proclaimed know it all" please answer my question. Curious minds want to know!

[LarryKing]

David "Self proclaimed know it all" and others...

Ummm, OK

If you even expect to get your initial investment back choose another hobby

A very wise golfer once asked "Name 3 things dumber than racing."

Betcha can't.

[MPR22]

WTF, I typed "Self proclaimed know it all" and it came out "Self Proclaimed Know it all" thats weird.

[MPR22]

Holy sheet, it happened again, does it happen when any one else types "Self proclaimed know it all"?

[MPR22]

Lets try something different.

"Big Prego"
Michael "fudging Ross"
Blake "beacon of fitness"


Jim, you have been hacked you better wake Caesar up and have him straighted this out.

[Glenn]

Ummm, OK




A very wise golfer once asked "Name 3 things dumber than racing."

Betcha can't.

Golf and Boating come to mind.......

[MPR22]

A very wise golfer once asked "Name 3 things dumber than racing."

Betcha can't.

too easy:

Congress
Special Grease Salesmen
The stock market

[Caveman-kwebb99]

ok 3 stupist things

bikering with Charbs
bikering with mpr
bikering with other idiots on mr.com (me included)

[Jim Drago]

SM5 does have a sealed motor. I like that.

How confident are you that those seals are not, have not or will not be compromised? Check with some SRF guys and let me know what they say.

JD, do you disagree that the top national drivers know the max they can from a 1.6, and that's why they campaign a 99, at least as long as the RO is at RA?

Like you said, I think we have hashed this a thousand times.. I will give the cliff notes version

2006>>> 1.6 was driven by pretty much everyone, it was as good or better than all the other cars. It was probably OVER REPRESENTED
2007 >>> SMAC Overreacts IMO and adds 25 lbs to a car that was competively classed...
2007>>> mass exodus from front runners as 1.6 is too heavy and 99 is up and coming car and no longer at a disadvantage
2008-2011 Many small tweaks and changes to get rules close etc, Those left with 1.6 cars for the most part were not front runners.. very few ran at front.. No front runners in 99/00 cars were ever building a 1.6 car again less it was clearly the favorite, which it would never be if SMAC was doing its job keeping cars close, which it was. Perception became reality, more and more switched to 99/00, many did worse, some did better. The perception is/was only a 99 can win..
2012 new rules new weights and plates, top speed of 99 slowed, but weights dropped so the cars race more similarly, Rules closer than ever,but guys winning in 1.6's this year, won last year as well. In reality, rules are different and better, but al cars can and did win the last few years as well

[Caveman-kwebb99]

is this the golf channel?

[dstevens]

A very wise golfer once asked "Name 3 things dumber than racing."

Golfing, boating, owning a touring sound company....

[dstevens]

How confident are you that those seals are not, have not or will not be compromised? Check with some SRF guys and let me know what they say.

Sealed engine programs punish guys that can open their own stuff and work on it. For example, what's the sealing cost to send it out for a ring change? Or if I spin the lower end? It's not if it'w when something happens to the engine. Some might say it's not different than a lease program. To an extent, that's right. But I'm not forced into the program. I can choose and in a sealed class that's not possible. The solution to checking engine compliance is tech, not seals.

[Jim Boemler]

Moose my question for David was for him to answer.

This is a forum. If you only want one person to answer a question, there's PM.

[Jim Boemler]

Sealed engine programs punish guys that can open their own stuff and work on it. For example, what's the sealing cost to send it out for a ring change? Or if I spin the lower end? It's not if it'w when something happens to the engine. Some might say it's not different than a lease program. To an extent, that's right. But I'm not forced into the program. I can choose and in a sealed class that's not possible. The solution to checking engine compliance is tech, not seals.

Seals is just comprehensive tech in advance, with the cost spread evenly.

[MPR22]

This is a forum. If you only want one person to answer a question, there's PM.

Mr. "Clown" my question was put to the group as a whole, but it was to be answered with each idividuals perception or rational. Not one person answering for the group or one person answering for another. Please read the wording of the guestion, paying specific attention to the words in bold.

I will cut and paste the question to make it easier. Please feel free to answer for yourself if it is important to you.

Why does it matter to YOU, if a 1.6 can win the Runoffs at Road America?

[FTodaro]

I thought when you beat a dead horse it was supposed to lay down. I guess not, 1.6 is still competitive at tracks like Mid O where top speed is not an issue and getting off a corner is. M.S. your a Mid O guy you have an advantage by the wt/hp at that track.

If you want be up front you have to drive like your hair is on fire, set up is just as important as motor/ & wt.

[dstevens]

Seals is just comprehensive tech in advance, with the cost spread evenly.

I've raced sealed classes. It doesn't save any money for people that work on their own stuff. What happens is those that would outright cheat, as opposed to us that push the gray with the rules, will look for a way under the seal. I've seen it in Rotax, Legends and the Chevy 602/604 crate program. Remember the SSM from the Bay Area last season that by the end of the season was running SM times and an SM tack record at Thunderhill? With a legit, uncompromised seal.

Sealing gives an illusion of parity.

For the record, I don't give a tinker's damn about what year car wins. For club racing I'm all about following the drivers, not the machinery.