70 replies to this topic

[5X Racing]

I know this is a dangerous question to ask in such a hostile environment... But this is Mazdaracers right? So, here goes:

I might have an opportunity here in Florida to bridge the SCCA Hoosier SM vs NASA Toyo SM line in the sand with an additional SM class within the NASA Florida Region for 2013. There are some of us that would like to run in NASA with their Hoosier equipped SM's, but do not (or cannot) want to purchase the additional set of tires needed to run legally in NASA with their SM spec tire (Toyo RA-1).

Most of us eventually choose one or the other, and cannot have both of the needed spec tires. What if we want to take our Hoosier equipped SM's to a NASA race? I think the only option right now is to race in PTE, which is similar to ITA in terms of allowing more modifications. Our team faces this situation in October as we are going to attend our first NASA FL race in 2012 with Hoosier equipped SM's. So thus brings up my question:

"How would you integrate Hoosier equipped SM's into NASA's program?"

-Not! Just bone up and buy Toyos too.
-Just race in PTE and shut up?
-Would you make "SMT (open tire SM. same rules, open tires) to accommodate the cross over racers and so all of the Miata's can race together ie: SSM?
-Would you go off the beaten path of SM and do something a little different with your car if given a more supportive "relevant" class to do it in?

The last question is an interesting one for me especially. There's no doubt that SM is the best class to race in for the cost involved. The most car counts, the closest competition, good people, affordability, etc... It's a great formula and should only be updated incrementally as it is every year now. However, I've seen a thinning pattern in SM over the last couple of years and wonder why (besides the obvious poor economy answer)? Whether it's regional guys going to ITA with their NA cars, or just a general decrease in participation numbers in races across my local FL races (except for attractions that are Daytona and Turkey Trot events of course), something's causing people to lose desire to race in SM as much as they used to. hale, we had a $1000 1st place prize race at PBIR back in the spring that only 5 cars entered in! WTF? So here's the question that will make you think and is what I am most looking to find thoughts on:

"If given a lump of clay which is a new regional only Miata class, how would you mold it?"

Some will throw this lump of clay in my face, but I ask this to collect thoughts on what other options could there be for a Miata in road racing? Is SM the only logical path for a Miata in road racing? I know there is ITA, ITS, STL, PT(?), and some others I might not know of, but these are not so heavily participated in (or are they? I've seen quite an increase in Miata participation for ITA and STL lately). What would you like to see in a Miata class?

-Spec+? (a little looser than SM right now to allow open tires and more equalization mods for earlier cars)
-Horsepower Spec? (creating a horsepower limit class, or power to weight ratio formula like NASA's American Iron Mustang class)
-Extreme Miata? ( )
-Vintage SM (only NA cars) (yeah I said it... my car is 21 years old, I can share a beer with it legally)
-Broke n' Poor Miata? (budget limited Miata, say $500 or $1000 claimer rules ala Chump Car style without the 12/14/24 hour races)

I hate to think it, but the Broke n' Poor Miata is probably the one that would draw the most people. Has anyone seen how popular Chump Car has gotten? There was like 100 cars entered at the recent Daytona race with plenty of Miata's... Wow. And we all know Miata's will take over that as well eventually!

Sky's the limit on possibilities and answers here. Let's hear what you all think, however harsh it may be towards the questioner!


I'm gonna go hide now.

Thanks for your thoughts! And remember, they are just thoughts, not plans!

[LarryKing]

The two most common reasons I hear from the people I talk to about why they leave, or cut-back participating in, SM are; 1. It cost too much to be competitive, and 2. There is too much contact.

I wish I had answers to go with those challenges. I think it's great that you are asking. I don't think the SCCA/NASA dick measuring contest helps either group to increase entries, not in the long term.

Personally, I use to race in 12-14 events/year. Lately it's been more like 5-6. Because of my limited 'fun budget', coupled with overall lack of free time, my expectations have lowered, along with my interest.

Cheaper and more funner is better. I been running "broke and poor" for years.

PS: I know several people who left SM and are getting their kicks in Chumpcar.

[john mueller]

The two most common reasons I hear from the people I talk to about why they leave, or cut-back participating in, SM are; 1. It cost too much to be competitive, and 2. There is too much contact.

Are there REAL answers to those two points?

High cost should be expected if you are wanting to be up-front of any class... It is auto racing, right? Beyond that 'cost' is subjective.

Contact can be controlled (somewhat) by the competitors - just take personal responsibility for the front half of your car... Don't' e'ffing ram each other and make better decisions! Yes stuff happens, but if you are going for a low percentage pass when the top step of the podium gets a 5" plastic trophy is stupid.

I don't think the SCCA/NASA dick measuring contest helps either group to increase entries, not in the long term.

Cheaper and more funner is better. I been running "broke and poor" for years.

I'll agree 100% on these though

I could say that NASA has a more rich tire contingency program, but you guys already know that and frankly it's a bummer. The intent was to have both organizations rules set to be exactly the same... We got close. Damn tire contracts.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Mueller, it's all like Ice cream. You can like Strawberry and Vanilla both, even Neoplitan...

Would it be ideal if the tire was the same in both group? HE LL yes! but right now its been fun running both places this year. More fun than last year by a long shot. I have actually ran more NASA events than I had orriginally planned this year, and a few less SCCA events than I wanted to. It has been more simple ecomics for me than which one I may or may not have more fun with.

Moose makes good points, I have had contact once this year, ran right into a spinning car, nothing I could do, it sucked for both of us for sure. I have seen more clean and close racing this year than I did last year. I have tried to make much better decisions on track for myself this year than I did last year. it was one of my main goals this year. So far so good on that, some of my other goals have not been so easily met this year.

My goal was to not have to replace a single part on my car by years end resulting from contact with another car. I need a fender, and had to replace control arms as a result of the contact I have had. I have been into the tire wall in the rain as well, but my goal is become a faster rain driver which means I have more risk to take in the rain, and have been taking them.

Not that any of this has to do with John's question...

My thoughts on his question are just go buy some used toyos and show up to run SM in NASA and have fun. Or run PTE in full SCCA SM trim and practice and test all those things you dont have time to do when at an SCCA race. Why in hale do we need another class? We already have to many tropheys given out to 1-3 car fields... That isnt racing IMO.

[LarryKing]

High cost should be expected if you are wanting to be up-front of any class...

Sure, I get it, genie out of the bottle and all that stuff.

An old-timer like me remembers SM being sold as a low cost, 'driver's' class. The whole concept behind this class was "buy a Miata, add the spec suspension, put in a cage and go racing." Isn't that what Bspec is trying to sell now. (By the way, the first year in CenDiv 4 the MazdaComp exhaust and stock airbox were required on the 1.6. Why did that change?)

Does anyone else remember the SportCar cover headline "Go Racing for Under $10,000". Some have said 'racing' doesn't imply being 'competitive', but I disagree. Racing and competing are synonymous.

[FTodaro]

I have ran both groups this year, and have had to go through the expense of two sets of rains and multiple sets of drys mounted. It is costly and adds a level of cost and complexity that not necessary in my book.

When they first announced the Hoosier deal I was not happy as my prior experience with Hoosiers were that i could not get the life out of them as I could with the Toyo.

I have changed my mind. I have learned to get a little more mileage out of the Hoosier. also I am not getting the HC out of the toyo that I used to and see the Toyo costing me as much or more as the Hoosier. Further the Hoosier is more consistent weekend to weekend, Toyo for me to be in the front is hit or miss.

A friend told me its because I am driving harder, I would like to believe it but it sure seams to me that the Toyo compound was changed.

To John's point, I wish that we could get back to one tire and if we do I am in for the Hoosier. Toyo is a PITA to get hooked up every weekend.

[5X Racing]

Thanks for the comments everyone, keep them coming! I agree that Chump Car is probably the best thing going right now for fun/cost ratio. Having competed in a race and experiencing it first hand, it is definitely a nice formula. The only thing I would have a hard time getting used to is building and having pride in a cheapo car as my full time ride.

What's the thoughts on a more extreme form of Miata racing? Not just within another class like PT or STL, but a Miata specific class that allows more creativity and modifications? Like body work allowances and maybe a more generic engine rule, like "150 wheel HP limit" instead of policing individual parts as we do in a Spec class. Obviously this goes against the budget method, is there a market for this type of "upgraded" Miata class? Or, is the market more suited for a "downgraded" Miata class?

[Bench Racer]

What's the thoughts on a more extreme form of Miata racing? Not just within another class like PT or STL, but a Miata specific class that allows more creativity and modifications? Like body work allowances and maybe a more generic engine rule, like "150 wheel HP limit" instead of policing individual parts as we do in a Spec class. Obviously this goes against the budget method, is there a market for this type of "upgraded" Miata class? Or, is the market more suited for a "downgraded" Miata class?

It all ready exists, it's called SCCA production car racing.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

It all ready exists, it's called SCCA production car racing.

That was

[Bench Racer]

That was

Here's worth along with the previous worth , SCCA GTL & GT2.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Here's worth along with the previous worth , SCCA GTL & GT2.

LOL you can be funny when your not nipping at Drago's heels like a chiwawa, or talking abotu the plight of the 1.6

[Bench Racer]

LOL you can be funny when your not nipping at Drago's heels like a chiwawa, or talking abotu the plight of the 1.6

Hey, all we had to do is install the 99 suspension bits to the 1.6 to make it a winner, correct. I read it here on this site, so it must be truth, correct.

Kyle, here's one you'll enjoy, no not the song, the 80's eye candy.

[Johnny D]

Damn tire contracts.

John, when are they up?
How they coming along if they're up this year?
J~

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Hey, all we had to do is install the 99 suspension bits to the 1.6 to make it a winner, correct. I read it here on this site, so it must be truth, correct.

Kyle, here's one you'll enjoy, no not the song, the 80's eye candy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKMD_8-tj5c

Dewy what you been looking at? Is it Mac or was it the girls? LOL I hope it the girls! I stick with Jessica myself. I know you retired so you like 100 years old, hale im 99 acording to my profile... but get with the newer honeys and ditch Mac Davis. I wonder if Mr. Pink had a Mac Davis shirt???

[5X Racing]

I see where this is going, Option 1 or 2:

-Not! Just bone up and buy Toyos too.
-Just race in PTE and shut up?

Proceed with your videos

[Bench Racer]

You never read that on this site... But why start with truths now?

With all my exuberance, I get the words parity and winner mixed up. So I'll refrase my comment, to bring parity for the 1.6 it requires the 99 suspension bits. Yes I read it on this site.

[john mueller]

John, when are they up?
How they coming along if they're up this year?
J~

NASA has a contract with TOYO through 2016

[john mueller]

I kinda like the idea of having a BAD-ASS-UNLIMITED-MIATA class like NASAs American Iron, but until there are a bunch more radically modified Miata's in regional PT classes I don't see the point. But, again I could be way off...

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Mueller, all the modified miata's race scca and are pretty die hard. PTE is mostly a bunch of sh it boxes running, there are very few highly developed cars. My PTE car is worth about 2 seconds a lap over the SM at Mid Ohio. and the car is pretty much maxed out. to go to the next class up and I have raced there, and those cars had 15+mph on me on the Mid Ohio straight. You better be a very creative motor man to be competitive in PTD, I did run within a .3 of their fast lap, and took P2 due to a dq of another racer and a wreck from another, any of those cars set up correctly and in capable hands would be 2+ seconds faster than my car. That would greatly increase the budget to race a miata and not what I bought a miata for.

The IT rules and the PT rules are not nessesarily that similar so crossover with those cars is very difficult. You must pick your poison...

[Bench Racer]

Kyle, these Webb places are SO much cleaner than the X gas station current liquor stoor/Greasy Spoon in Lexington at IIRC the corner of hwy 42 & Main street. Hey, it was more darn fun being there early in the mornig when the locals were doing their jawing over coffee. Hope you fellas took AC to a place like the local Greasy Spoon for breakfast.