127 replies to this topic

[Glenn]

S...What year in this cycle do you think we are in now?????

-3

[Alex Bolanos]

Great thread, I heard pennies make dollars so here's a few of mine..

Why are entries low this year? A few possibilities:

• Last year of NASA on the East side - There are some that run both NASA and SCCA all year, since the two championship events are in the same month (huge mistake by the way) most can only do one of them. This year, many of these people will lean towards the NASA champs this year because they'll be gone for some time.
• Cost to qualify - NASA requires 5 standard (I don't want to call them regional) events... TT AND/OR Race to qualify.... bang, that's it. Not only that, but you can sign up for any number of classes when you go to the champs. SCCA nationals are not only very expensive (why are they more money than regionals?) but you need more of them (to count just finishes) AND you must individually qualify for all classes you may want to run at the champs. With no "supersize" discount that means DOUBLE entry fees all year... Plus you're risking your car in two classes at all of those national weekends...
• Road America - HP track (perceived or otherwise), far drive for SW W and SE divs (which make up the bulk of national level cars), history of car and driver mangling due to narrow corners with walls and race ending gravel traps, history of fuel cost drama, history of bump drafting drama (at a track where bump drafting is worth almost two seconds), etc. Time for a change, the champs should rotate tracks.
• "The" motor- Any time there is a dominant factor in a series, interest wanes. Starting in mid 2011, a clear advance was made with engine tech (pun intended) which has culminated in a dominant runoffs pole, a runoffs win (obviously different drivers), the resurgence of the 1.6 (in the hands of a stellar driver no doubt), and a commanding presence at several positions in the national points top 10. Results empower advertising, advertising tells everyone what the cost of "The" big motor is, combine that with a HP track and you'll find that some will sit out based on opportunity cost.

That being said, I'm fortunate to have the opportunity to do both champs this year again and I'm sure there will be at least 30 signed up for the runoffs by the time I get there (A FULL WEEK BEFORE THE RACE)...

[FTodaro]

I have not been to an SCCA runnoff so I don't know but if it really will cost 10- 12,000 that is a huge dent in the wallet. I would really have to think on that.

[Alex Bolanos]

I have not been to an SCCA runnoff so I don't know but if it really will cost 10- 12,000 that is a huge dent in the wallet. I would really have to think on that.

The only way to get to that number is if you are a business owner, shut the door for a week, and add that to the cost of the event....

My math tells me ~$5k all in, what's the math breakdown on $10k+?

[AJ Roderick]

I wanted to go this year but the only thing stopping me is school and work. Maybe next year!

[pat slattery]

I have not been to an SCCA runnoff so I don't know but if it really will cost 10- 12,000 that is a huge dent in the wallet. I would really have to think on that.

It doesn't have to cost that much more than a National weekend but for some that have the money, including the gentelman that was throwing around 40K so he could be prepared to finish in the mid pack at the runoffs, that seems to be the norm for many. Some guys spend more for a car and season of racing that many including myself make in a year. Not complaining about that, I probably would do the same if I had the money. When we started in SM it was fairly inexpensive, once you got the car, we did our car by ourself, had the cage put in and a crate engine, and were very competitive. The playing field has changed. The 99 has changed the landscape of SM, some will say for the good, and some will say not. The cat is out of the bag, so we have to live with what we have, and realize that SM is never going to be the same as it was 10 years ago. Other than spending for a couple of new tires for the runoffs, that was the only extra expense that we incurred for the runoffs except for maybe a 100.00 additional for food for the extra few days, we camp in our trailer to cut cost. I would say we spent less than 3000, for the runoffs, including the tires.

Hoosier tires has killed our program this year, staring over with new tires, is a big expense, maybe not to some, but many budget guys have to have a set of rains and several sets of race tires to experiment with and learn, That tire does not handle the same as RA1, and it does take time to learn air, setup, etc. Certainly not what the budget guy needs in a soft economy

I think the resurgents of NASA is because of the RA1 tire. Most know the tire, most do not have to buy rains, and have several or more serviceable sets to race with and that is a big cost savings for the budget guy.

Just some thoughts about 2012

Pat

[Rob Burgoon]

The only way to get to that number is if you are a business owner, shut the door for a week, and add that to the cost of the event....

My math tells me ~$5k all in, what's the math breakdown on $10k+?

A racer in San Diego:
4200mile tow: at $0.75/ mi $3150
Late-ish Registraion: $700
Two test days: $900
Tires 4 sets: $2800
Brake pads: $200
5 hours on $7K engine that lasts 50 hours: $700
dyno time $300
hotel 12 nights: $1000
body damage or pre race appearance improvement: $500

I think that's about $10K. And that's without any special build or expert setup help or other expert services.

Now, let's say this hypothetical racer is an engineer for a smallish company and makes $50K a year after taxes. He takes 2 weeks off for this (his whole year's vacation). That's $2K more in vacation and the lost opportunity of any other vacation that year (which f*ing blows).

[Caveman-kwebb99]

A racer in San Diego:
4200mile tow: at $0.75/ mi $3150
Late-ish Registraion: $700
Two test days: $900
Tires 4 sets: $2800
Brake pads: $200
5 hours on $7K engine that lasts 50 hours: $700
dyno time $300
hotel 12 nights: $1000
body damage or pre race appearance improvement: $500

I think that's about $10K. And that's without any special build or expert setup help or other expert services.

Now, let's say this hypothetical racer is an engineer for a smallish company and makes $50K a year after taxes. He takes 2 weeks off for this (his whole year's vacation). That's $2K more in vacation and the lost opportunity of any other vacation that year (which f*ing blows).

You chance to be first babboon to every beat Von Charbolanos... Priceless!!!!!

[James York]

I have not been to an SCCA runnoff so I don't know but if it really will cost 10- 12,000 that is a huge dent in the wallet. I would really have to think on that.

Here was roughly what I spent leading up to and attending the 2010 Runoffs.

New JD Engine: $5000 (let's just round here; at minimum you will want to have a fresh head so your cost may vary)
Tires 4 sets: $2800
2 Test days: $1000
Pre-work prep: $1000 (tune, engine install, pads, hubs, etc)
Roundtrip fuel: $1200
Shared trackside support: $700 (set-up guru, fix-it man, tech teardown dude)

My rig has living quarters so I saved the cost of eating out and hotel for the 10 days I was there. And my father is retired and likes to come along saving a bit more in expenses (he buys beer, yeah!)

So you can see I spent about $12k to specifically attend that event, at minimum, with just a fresh head, maybe I could do a Runoffs for $8K.

For people that really want bad news, keep all your reciepts from anything racing related (yes beer counts) and see how much we spend annually. It's scary.

[Rob Burgoon]

Here was roughly what I spent leading up to and attending the 2010 Runoffs.

New JD Engine: $5000 (let's just round here; at minimum you will want to have a fresh head so your cost may vary)
Tires 4 sets: $2800
2 Test days: $1000
Pre-work prep: $1000 (tune, engine install, pads, hubs, etc)
Roundtrip fuel: $1200
Shared trackside support: $700 (set-up guru, fix-it man, tech teardown dude)

My rig has living quarters so I saved the cost of eating out and hotel for the 10 days I was there. And my father is retired and likes to come along saving a bit more in expenses (he buys beer, yeah!)

So you can see I spent about $12k to specifically attend that event, at minimum, with just a fresh head, maybe I could do a Runoffs for $8K.

For people that really want bad news, keep all your reciepts from anything racing related (yes beer counts) and see how much we spend annually. It's scary.

Mr Cajun Engineer, your engine isn't worthless after the event correct? I'm not sure you can expense the whole engine.

[Tom Sager]

Years ago the Runoffs was really about only inviting the best of the best and I don't think the club was as concerned about the size of the fields. SCCA has now moved to a more inclusive format (probably to make money) but I think many in our class have come to Road America for the "experience" once or twice and it hasn't been great for them for a variety of reasons. The track does magnify differences in cars and drivers more than some tracks. It's probably time for a venue change if car count is of utmost importance to the club. Personally I don't think car count should be the big priority. While I like Road America and it's close to home, another track would tighten the field which would probably be seen as a positive by many in our class.

I also think that the more inclusive rules to qualify for the Runoffs has reduced car counts at National races later in the season because many don't need the points and skip events that would have been necessary in the past. The whole thing needs to be spiced up a bit. How about we have an SCCA / NASA challenge race after both championship events where the top 15 of so from each event square off in the champion of champions race?

[Rob Burgoon]

I also think that the more inclusive rules to qualify for the Runoffs has reduced car counts at National races later in the season because many don't need the points and skip events that would have been necessary in the past. The whole thing needs to be spiced up a bit. How about we have an SCCA / NASA challenge race after both championship events where the top 15 of so from each event square off in the champion of champions race?

An idea, but not politically practical. NASA/SCCA have already crowned the "champion" as far as they and their partners are concerned.

Or just attend both events.

[Blake Clements]

Mr Cajun Engineer, your engine isn't worthless after the event correct? I'm not sure you can expense the whole engine.

Have you ever gotten an engine back as a box of parts?

[Rob Burgoon]

Have you ever gotten an engine back as a box of parts?

Nope, hadn't considered that. Point still stands though. Maybe $1K for engine re-assembly?

Also, if your engine comes back in a box, chances are you've pulled down some contingency?

[Blake Clements]

Nope, hadn't considered that. Point still stands though. Maybe $1K for engine re-assembly?

Also, if your engine comes back in a box, chances are you've pulled down some contingency?

The fresh head or fresh engine is a sunk cost for a Runoffs quality program. Just like tires and pads, but you get a little more life out of a head than tires. James' estimate is quite reasonable, I know a few places I could tack on a few grand in his estimate.

Not necessarily on contingency. You might not pass, or you might win for a few hours until everyone else gets reinstated under appeals

[James York]

Mr Cajun Engineer, your engine isn't worthless after the event correct? I'm not sure you can expense the whole engine.

Ok, so pro-rate it. Or just a head refresh at the minimum. But if I hadn't attended, I might have just run engine No. 2 into the next season until next runoffs. Remember, at RA you can't afford to be down any HP.

And I did say, maybe get by with $8k with just a top end, which is a minimum that anyone with any hope of being on the podium at RA should have recently completed.

[Alex Bolanos]

The fresh head or fresh engine is a sunk cost for a Runoffs quality program. Just like tires and pads, but you get a little more life out of a head than tires.

Sorry pumpkin, calling BS here. These engines are not LCD screens, they can come apart and be put back together just the same. Charb's 2010 champ engine is still running strong, gaskets and go...

What the fcuk are you guys running through these engines that makes them so expendable? Jamie's longblock has TWO years on it, the head on mine is TWO years old, Charb's has at least a year on it...

Also... FOUR sets of tires?! really?

Man... I'm glad I do my own wrenching and my own math, I couldn't race at all using the numbers in this thread.

[Rob Burgoon]

Sorry pumpkin, calling BS here. These engines are not LCD screens, they can come apart and be put back together just the same. Charb's 2010 champ engine is still running strong, gaskets and go...

What the fcuk are you guys running through these engines that makes them so expendable? Jamie's longblock has TWO years on it, the head on mine is TWO years old, Charb's has at least a year on it...

Also... FOUR sets of tires?! really?

Man... I'm glad I do my own wrenching and my own math, I couldn't race at all using the numbers in this thread.

maybe 1 set of rains, 3 sets of slicks. I'm assuming two practice days at 2 hours each, so a new set each practice day, stickers for the main, and stickers for at least one qualifying. h*ll, that's 4 sets of drys.

[Blake Clements]

Sorry pumpkin, calling BS here. These engines are not LCD screens, they can come apart and be put back together just the same. Charb's 2010 champ engine is still running strong, gaskets and go...

What the fcuk are you guys running through these engines that makes them so expendable? Jamie's longblock has TWO years on it, the head on mine is TWO years old, Charb's has at least a year on it...

Also... FOUR sets of tires?! really?

Man... I'm glad I do my own wrenching and my own math, I couldn't race at all using the numbers in this thread.

So you are telling me the engine you get back in a box gets put back together by your engine builder for free? I would like to be on that program.

We have always AT LEAST put a fresh head on before the national championship race of the season (NASA or SCCA). That is a sunk cost for me for my Runoffs prep. Its a yearly expenditure, just like tires are a weekend expenditure. Its part of the "money" to go to such events.

Congratulations on having long lasting engines. I don't think they pay contingency money for that?

Four sets of tires is reasonable to me, especially on the Hoosiers.

I don't see where anything I said was "BS".

[Blake Clements]

How about we have an SCCA / NASA challenge race after both championship events where the top 15 of so from each event square off in the champion of champions race?

Tom,
That is basically what the ARRC will and should turn into now that it is open to any and all.

Blake