163 replies to this topic

[Jamz14]

There is another option for the starts. Some races require that a pass cannot be initiated until you reach the control line. This is also done in rotax karting. This greatly reduces the issues of the back rows building a head of steam and passing as soon as the green drops. The green in this case would only denote when you can come to full throttle.

[Rob Burgoon]

There is another option for the starts. Some races require that a pass cannot be initiated until you reach the control line. This is also done in rotax karting. This greatly reduces the issues of the back rows building a head of steam and passing as soon as the green drops. The green in this case would only denote when you can come to full throttle.

One downside is some hard nose to tail contact pre-S/F. I've seen that a few times in grand am. Someone misses a shift and all goes to h3ll.

[AJ Roderick]

One downside is some hard nose to tail contact pre-S/F. I've seen that a few times in grand am. Someone misses a shift and all goes to h3ll.

There is another option for the starts. Some races require that a pass cannot be initiated until you reach the control line. This is also done in rotax karting. This greatly reduces the issues of the back rows building a head of steam and passing as soon as the green drops. The green in this case would only denote when you can come to full throttle.

Just want to add that karting follows that rule because they don't generally have full course yellows so it works on the starts. With SCCA being, once the green flag drops, the track is green, you almost cant have the rule no passing until a control line

[Johnny D]

When most (not all, Charb is still an anomoly) of you went to Drivers School you had to read at least part of the GCR. Try reading the entire thing. Then read it again a couple of dozen times, then be able to recite the important parts like an evangelical christian can recite the Bible then you would understand.

The SCCA is a Club, to get action a club member (with certain standing at an event) must ask for another member to take action. The officials are not likely to take action unless someone ask, if nobody ask it must not be that important. We are self policing. Unles we take action very seldom does something happen.

In Our Region (San Fran) we get a full pull in SM or pointed into impound if you've done something or had contact, reported from the corner workers/tower. They have there hands full tracking down the car/driver/story and you can protest if you'd like.
J~

[Jamz14]

Johnny,

Not quite sure I understand what you are trying to say. But a control line does work for auto racing. a number of different series use it and use it effectively.

Rob, that is true,that can be an issue, but the rule can be written where there is no passing. Doesn't mean that you can't move out of line. And a miss shift is an issue as the rules are currently written too. So the downsides are the same, but there are improvements to the overall start and to some of the issues raised here. In particular issues of back rows building speed and passing the front row, and the front row being at a disadvantage.

[Keith Novak]

Since some regions discourage protests (yes you can file them but they try to talk you out of it), one way that would seem a bit easier to get people to self police is to wave off more starts. Many people have never read the rules. You can tell that any time a flag comes out that isn't green, yellow or checkered during a race. If the start gets waved off, that time comes out of your own group so it doesn't throw off other groups' schedules. At impound, the steward explains that the reason it was waved was that once again, people were being knuckleheads and how. Either people will get it, or others will start talking to them and encouraging them to not pull that crap.

I have been penalized for jumping the start. I couldn't see the flag stand but the guy in front went so I followed. The steward talked to me about it. I explained, apologized, he was sympathetic and I lost a bunch of positions so while rare it does happen.

[Johnny D]

Jamz,
Mike said "self policing" and that's fine, NASA is like that.
I just said in our region there's cops at every corner worker station reporting us.

For starts, there's so many variables. Missed shift, wrong gear, rev limiter overload, jump, radio spotter green, green, green.
I'm fine with what we have, but the dive bomb isn't cool.
J~

[Jamz14]

Johnny,

Understood. But those same variables are there whether you have a control line or not. The only difference is that there is a very particular point on the track before you initiate a pass. Those variables don't seem to be a really big problem in Grand Am. But as Rob has pointed out, there has been some spectacular pile ups on Grand Am starts. Not all due to the control line, but probably some due to how they start in that series.

We run NASA and I have never had a problem with the race calls or the competitors. I don't have a problem with the current starting procedure. Just putting out an option that would address concerns of the back rows initiating passes before they should or rolling on the throttle and getting an advantage on the front row. I think we need to ask why Grand AM and other series use a control line approach. I would be willing to bet it is for the exact reasons that Drago and others have talked about. Back rows having an unfair advantage over the starting row that out qualified everyone and have demonstrated that they deserve to be at the front.

Look, for every suggestion you will be able to find some problem with it. If there was a perfect solution, then this discussion wouldn't be happening and you would see consistent starting procedures across the racing series. So if you will always have some issue no matter which one you pick, then pick the procedure that solves the biggest concerns. If the concern is safety, standing starts might be the best, if the concern is fairness to the pole sitter, a control line might be best. If it is ease of officiating, then our current starting procedure might be best. Just saying, that until I brought it up, I hadn't seen a single suggestion of a control line. Didn't know why as it seems like a good solution. At the end of the day, I could care less. We will start however NASA wants us to start and be happy with it and try to take as much advantage as possible while not jeopardizing safety or other competitors equipment.

[Jamz14]

As far as waiving off starts goes. there are multiple reasons that you don't see too many waived starts. One; in club racing you often have multiple classes on track, and if you waive the lead group, you have to waive the tail group. Two; people are running very tight on fuel, a couple of waived starts and you have cars out of fuel. Three, club races run on a very tight timeline. Waived starts mess with that tight schedule. Crashes already affect the schedule. An abundance of waived starts to train the competitors compounds that problem.

[Keith Novak]

You don't have this problem in LeMans starts...and I bet I can get into the seat faster than some of older and fatter guys.

[Johnny D]

Jamz +1 I hear ya.
I'm out right now having to replace my front clip from a dive bomb.
I'm crazy and will try anything once (figure 8 at TH)
NASA seems to be more open to new ideas, IMO, Maybe lean on John M ear a little.
J~

[Rob Burgoon]

Just found out that my letter is still making its way through the system, proposed changes getting revised further.

[Keith Novak]

Thank you for your input. We still think there rules are acceptable as they stand?

[Todd Green]

Just putting out an option that would address concerns of the back rows initiating passes before they should or rolling on the throttle and getting an advantage on the front row.

This probably won't do any good in SM. Our cars don't accelerate like DPs, but all it takes is the slightest of rolls and you will gain positions by turn 1. (Even though you are still in line across start/finish.) A rule that states you must be within one car length of the car in front of you and maintaining pace when the green drops and a few extra eyes from volunteers watching various rows for jumps/rolls would be a good start (no pun intended). I've mentioned starting issues three times in our region and for a while we did have a bunch of starts waved off until people sort of behaved, but it seems to have gone back to the wild west this year (a bunch of new personnel).

Mike - A popular quotation (often attributed to Hemingway) would argue we are one of only three sports.

[davew]

As far as waiving off starts goes. there are multiple reasons that you don't see too many waived starts. One; in club racing you often have multiple classes on track, and if you waive the lead group, you have to waive the tail group. Two; people are running very tight on fuel, a couple of waived starts and you have cars out of fuel. Three, club races run on a very tight timeline. Waived starts mess with that tight schedule. Crashes already affect the schedule. An abundance of waived starts to train the competitors compounds that problem.

Item one, I assume you are talking about split starts, as opposed to multiple class single group starts. Non issue to me. If row 1 screws up, every row gets the same penalty. No difference than if group 1 screws up, group 2 gets the penalty. Also, just because the green is waved, does not mean you can not be penalized. Either with a black flag during the race or post race.

Item two, yellow flag laps count as race laps, and get better fuel milage. There fuel would be better not worse.

Item 3, many sanctioning bodies run timed races. So it does not matter how many laps you run. And even in a lap count race the time differential would be minimum. If race laps are 1:30, pace laps should be about 2:30. If the schedule is that tight that one minute makes a difference, you need a new schedule.

You don't see many waived off starts because:
A, most starts are pretty good at least in the front half of the field. No need to waive off
B, waive offs can be dangerous at some tracks with short straightaways or poor visibility
C, Starters just do not like to do them. I don't know why, but they don't

dave

[FTodaro]

Starters just do not like to do them. I don't know why, but they don't

dave

Maybe its because this is club racing for a trophy. I mean at what point do you restart a race. if there is a little gap between cars, you may never get the race off the ground. My Opinion, but i think the prevailing view is that if you have people who are jumping the start, or passing before the green, or what ever, the reasoning is to penalize the person who is screwing up. so they may get put to the back of the fishing order or DQ entirely or what ever they decide is appropriate.

When there are multiple waves being started, Like in NASA where you have two separate groups doing a rolling start and one group doing a standing start, it pretty much has to come off the fist go around, and if there are people misbehaving they are going to get DQed.

[DrDomm]

When most (not all, Charb is still an anomoly) of you went to Drivers School you had to read at least part of the GCR. Try reading the entire thing. Then read it again a couple of dozen times, then be able to recite the important parts like an evangelical christian can recite the Bible then you would understand.

The SCCA is a Club, to get action a club member (with certain standing at an event) must ask for another member to take action. The officials are not likely to take action unless someone ask, if nobody ask it must not be that important. We are self policing. Unles we take action very seldom does something happen.

I've read most of the GCR, but I'll have to read it again. This would explain why nothing happens everytime I get passed under yellow flags.

I never thought I'd have to bring my lawyer and accountant to each race.

[Johnny D]

I've read most of the GCR, but I'll have to read it again. This would explain why nothing happens everytime I get passed under yellow flags.

I never thought I'd have to bring my lawyer and accountant to each race.

Best thing to bring is your video camera. Great defense.
J~

[Rob Burgoon]

Maybe its because this is club racing for a trophy.

Or it's for a few hundred in contingency. Nothing worth caring about.

[Jamz14]

Dave,

Understand your points. But as far as the fuel mileage goes; waived starts do not count to the total lap count. If you have two waived starts then you have two extra laps of fuel. Even though those laps are low fuel consumption laps, you are still using more fuel. The yellows are the yellows are the yellows. You have them with or without a waived start You could plan your fuel mileage anticipating yellows. But in my mind that is too risky. Granted fuel consumption is not of the biggest concern.

At least for the races I have participated in, they are lap count races. If the race prior runs long, we still run the same laps. Granted, they could shorten both races to get back on schedule, but that kinda sucks for everyone, in that now I have fewer laps to race with. One solution would be to count waived starts against the total lap counts. This would definately motivate people to make sure their starts were clean. That is if they like running as many laps as possible.

Waived off split group starts are not ideal thats for sure. Yes you can penalize without restarting the whole field. And that is pretty common, and a good solution. You make a very good point with that. Maybe that is the real solution here. Instead of changing the starting procedure and/or waving the start, just penalize people individually that are jumping it.