163 replies to this topic

[FTodaro]

Didn't even get that.

How is that different from what the pole sitting start cheaters are currently doing today? There seems to be a lot of favor for ignoring the rules on the books and protecting the pole sitter from those with non-geriatric reflexes.

All I want is everyone on the same page. It's just like with the terrible engine rules we had. "Overhaul that increases hp not allowed" yeah, right. Unwritten rules don't make things better, they make things messy.

We should pick what sort of start we want for our class and/or SCCA, then tighten up the rules around it.

Rob Do you get upset when someone drives 70mph in a 65 mph zone? Rules are generally interpreted in such a way to try and achieve the desired result. You can word the rule anyway you want but someone has to interpret it and implement it. As MPR22 said there is a rule and the started has the freedom and judgment to wave it off if its getting out of hand.

I do not like rules such that it leaves no margin for interpretation, at least when it comes to an issue like starts. I agree that the "rule" passing under yellow for example has to be strictly enforced, but some "rules are more of a guideline" than a black and white rule.

Where do you draw the line on an infraction. Pace car is doing 35, and you roll on the throttle and are doing 40 at the flag? 45? 50?

[Rob Burgoon]

Where do you draw the line on an infraction. Pace car is doing 35, and you roll on the throttle and are doing 40 at the flag? 45? 50?

No reason why you couldn't add a tolerance of +/- 5mph. See the engine rules for examples.

I think it's important to have it be clear when we're racing and when we're not racing. If you have a pole sitter that varies speed, the cars behind sometimes falsely believe a start is happening and you get the accordion effect.

This often isn't a gray area, you're either holding speed until the green comes out, or when a pole goes early you can be doing double the pace car's speed before the green comes. That wasn't by mistake or hard to detect.

[Andrew Charbonneau]

No reason why you couldn't add a tolerance of +/- 5mph. See the engine rules for examples.

I think it's important to have it be clear when we're racing and when we're not racing. If you have a pole sitter that varies speed, the cars behind sometimes falsely believe a start is happening and you get the accordion effect.

This often isn't a gray area, you're either holding speed until the green comes out, or when a pole goes early you can be doing double the pace car's speed before the green comes. That wasn't by mistake or hard to detect.

really rob so if i brake ck you on start will you protest

[Ron Alan]

Why do I remember this same discussion last year??? Maybe this topic deserves it's own thread...or not! Here you go...

Radar gun...like in hockey with a face off if you jump early you are kicked out...to the back! Seriously though, I think many agree(quietly) with Rob's frustration and also with MPR22/Drago's thoughts. When the pack is already at 80MPH at Road America Nationals every year when the green flies...and that is accepted...how do you think this is looked at? Legal correct?

So do you follow the crowd or test the system? P3 and 4 this year need to park it at 40mph at the last corner heading up the hill. Regardless of what P1 and 2 do(roll on the throttle??)they maintain 40mph until the green flag. Will P1 and 2 still be with them? If not will the start be waved off? Will someone protest if in fact P1 and 2 bolt?

Not so much for the front row of course but I think the biggest problem is guys who leave big gaps...then try to guess and create the dreaded start stop accordion effect. Never actually seen a pole sitter slow back down after a pace has begun...drag brakes, yes...but not slow down. Though not "legal" the rolling starts do generally get everyone making it through the first corner Which is a good thing yes?

[DrDomm]

A good/fair race start (in any class) is the Holy Grail. I don't think Rob should be crucified for encouraging this. I think it's easy to blame the guy at the front who rolls onto the throttle before the green, but farther back it's pretty easy to fall a little behind (like when someone brake checks you ahead). The guys in the back then get on the throttle soon also. With large fields and varying levels of experience and skill, there will always be unequal starts.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I couldnt agree more no crusifixion for the monkey man a simple tar and feathering will do just fine LOL

[DrDomm]

in my huble opinion all parts guys drive over there heads because they can afford the parts lol you tooo drago

That is funny.

[MPR22]

A good/fair race start (in any class) is the Holy Grail. I don't think Rob should be crucified for encouraging this. I think it's easy to blame the guy at the front who rolls onto the throttle before the green, but farther back it's pretty easy to fall a little behind (like when someone brake checks you ahead). The guys in the back then get on the throttle soon also. With large fields and varying levels of experience and skill, there will always be unequal starts.

I do not believe anyone is crucifying Mr. Burgoon regarding his desire for a fair start. I have repeatedly pointed out to Mr. Burgoon to file a protests if he feels anyone jumped the start. I personally do not belive the rules need to be changed.

As for Mr. Burgoon's consistent assersition the pole sitter must have poor reflexes and therefore cheats to keep from being passed at the start is silly. Anyone fast enough to be on the pole at a National SM race should be able to react to a green flag that is clearly visible to only two drivers at most racers. The pole and his wingman.

[FTodaro]

I am still in the "if it aint broke done fix it camp" I have been in starts that go both ways. guys who hold the pace car speed and guys who roll on the throttle. I really do not see an advantage or disadvantage either way. I am looking forward, I am keying off of two things, the cars ahead of me if any, and the flag stand. The only time its a problem is if the guy ahead of me, if there is one, who is late to the gas but that is a problem under either case. So I guess I just don't see a problem we are all operating under the same conditions.

If the car ahead is going, I go, if the car ahead is pacing, I pace.

[Adax]

I'm just glad to finally know why I get left for dead on the starts.

[Rob Burgoon]

I have repeatedly pointed out to Mr. Burgoon to file a protests if he feels anyone jumped the start.

I did. It failed. That's why I feel the rules need revision.

[Johnny D]

I'm just glad to finally know why I get left for dead on the starts.

There's the "have" Radio and Spotter and the "have nots" in some cases.
Get the guys without in front of the guy with, 3, 4 wide?
J~

[Caveman-kwebb99]

If that damn bertok wouldnt get into these accidents we wouldnt have all this bickering... Steve, I sure hope someone "not you" ruffles some tin sometime soon so we can all argue about starts again lol

[Keith Novak]

Good fair starts aren't limited to the front of the pack. What I see a few rows back is if I play fair and sit close to the car in front of me pacing them and the leaders have decided to start nice and orderly, often rows behind have hung back several car lengths and then get a huge run at the rows in front. Once they've closed the gap, the flag comes out and the people who played nice get their doors blown off.

[DrDomm]

I do not believe anyone is crucifying Mr. Burgoon regarding his desire for a fair start. I have repeatedly pointed out to Mr. Burgoon to file a protests if he feels anyone jumped the start. I personally do not belive the rules need to be changed.

As for Mr. Burgoon's consistent assersition the pole sitter must have poor reflexes and therefore cheats to keep from being passed at the start is silly. Anyone fast enough to be on the pole at a National SM race should be able to react to a green flag that is clearly visible to only two drivers at most racers. The pole and his wingman.

Ok.

I think his argument solid, though. If everyone is happy with the way the starts are, then the rules should be changed to reflect reality...'cause there's always some idealist in the back getting passed before the green waves. Simply put, "The pole sitter controls the pace, and you can't pull out or pass until the green waves". That's today's "unwritten rule". I say "write it". Then everyone is running under the same set of rules. It probably isn't as safe as the current rules, but it is reality.

I hate the notion that you must protest in order to get rules enforced. What other sport works like that?

[Mike Collins]

Domm,

We are a club, not a sport......

[Rob Burgoon]

Domm,

We are a club, not a sport......

Now that's crazy talk. Lots of sports have clubs and vice versa. In our case the sport is racing and the club is a torque wrench.

[Panic Motorsports]

If that damn bertok wouldnt get into these accidents we wouldnt have all this bickering... Steve, I sure hope someone "not you" ruffles some tin sometime soon so we can all argue about starts again lol

Half the country already hated me, might as well go for the hat trick This thread is so far off the original topic, I don't know why I'm even looking anymore. Still cant believe it took Charbs 6 pages to jump in.

[Johnny D]

We are a club, not a sport......

Mike, could you explain your thinking on this? It may be enlightening.
J~

[Mike Collins]

When most (not all, Charb is still an anomoly) of you went to Drivers School you had to read at least part of the GCR. Try reading the entire thing. Then read it again a couple of dozen times, then be able to recite the important parts like an evangelical christian can recite the Bible then you would understand.

The SCCA is a Club, to get action a club member (with certain standing at an event) must ask for another member to take action. The officials are not likely to take action unless someone ask, if nobody ask it must not be that important. We are self policing. Unles we take action very seldom does something happen.