138 replies to this topic

[stillentwint17]

I was able to get it out with a flat head and a vice. Not sure if the contact surface is damaged though....I sanded it down..

 

[stillentwint17]

Can i just press out the pilot bearing from the flywheel? Just throw it up on the drill press and press on the outer race?? Is that sufficient??

[fotostars]

Can i just press out the pilot bearing from the flywheel? Just throw it up on the drill press and press on the outer race?? Is that sufficient??

 

I use a Hammer and a 19mm socket to push it out of the FW...

[FTodaro]

as said above it should not me much work with a punch to get out the PB. Take note how far the other one is pressed in before you try and remove it.

[FTodaro]

Ok I finally got to my RMS project, I used the drill hole/screw seal removal method. I am pretty sure i have a bad seal vs. leaky pan from the oil pattern on the back of the oil pan. That is my opinion, am i missing anything?

 

 

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[Mark McCallister]

Too bad we're all spread out all over the country, this would be easier if we were all working together in the same garage!

 

So here's my discovery of the day, I just realized the pilot bearing is just laying in there, totally loose - I can move it around in any direction with my finger.  Not normal I'm thinking?  Does that happen often?

 

[Mark McCallister]

So apparently I just knocked the bearing out when extracting the transmission, no big deal.

 

Frank, can you post a larger resolution picture to compare?

 

Looks like I need a new RMS too - no sign of recent oil above the bell housing, but lots of oil-dampness within.  No sign of seepage from the flywheel bolts, and I don't *see* any cracks in the 4th grade science fair project seal job on the oil pan - if the oil was coming from the pan seal, I would expect less scattering, but I dunno.

 

[FTodaro]

Mark that Pilot will fly no more, its shot. they are inexpensive and easy to replace. drive the old one out and tap a new one it with a socket.

 

On the RMS, If your not getting a deposit of oil on the floor and you just have wetness at the back of the motor, I am not sure I would change it out. Sometimes you cause more problems that you fix. I am not sure what got you started but I would leave it unless your getting drops to the floor, That is just me.

 

I would get oil dripping on the ground after every start.

[Bench Racer]

Mark, as my profile says "Different Stroks for Different Folks".  With motor out of car per picture I'd install new seals and pan gasket.

 

Pilot bearing is not normal. Did you have any noise when using the clutch pedal? Or other wise? Does the bearing look normal? Does the bearing outer race show that it's been rotating in the crankshaft? Is the transmission input shaft rotating true? I'm asking questions presuming the bearing was pressed in when new.

 

Maybe Dave Wheeler or one of the other gurus will pop in.

[Keith Novak]

I'm no guru but I did have one pilot bearing that would come out with input shaft whenever I pulled the trans, even lined up nice and straight out of the car.  Didn't seem to be a problem until one day after unloading the car at the track it started making a horrible scraping/grinding noise. I don't remember if it was difficult to shift or not.  I limped it into my paddock space and fidgeted with the shifter for a while and it went away.  I attributed it to that pilot bearing coming at least partially loose from the bump at the bottom of the car ramps.  Never caused a problem on the track itself that I could tell but it sure didn't inspire confidence.  Changed pilot bearings when I got home and haven't had it come out on removal or that strange noise again.

[davew]

Please read this entire post. The first section may piss off a few of you.

 

There appears to be a lot of people with first grade abilities and experience (remember abilities are normally directly related to experience) trying to do a 10th grade project. You guys are WAY over your heads. Trans removal is a 15-20 minute job for anyone with the tools and knowledge. Clutch flywheel, pilot bearing, Rear Main adds 10 minutes. Reinstall about 40 minutes. Entire job out the door in an hour and a half.

 

Your time, your wifes aggrevation, a dozen roses to keep her happy, tools purchased, loss of productivity, bandwidth; all add up to more than I would charge to do the job.

 

Value of knowledge learned, slight. Satisfaction of doing something you have never done before, PRICELESS

 

Now that I have vented:

 

When the trans is removed, the motor tilts down in back. As soon as the trans is free, the motor tilts down in front. When you pull the trans, the input shaft sticks in the pilot bearing and the wedge effect of engine going forward and trans backward pulls the pilot out of its hole in the flywheel. I consider it normal for the pilot to fall out. Pilot bearings are cheap and go bad often when subjected to 7000 rpm shifts and high temps. It just taps into the flywheel, nothing special. Check the release bearing for roughness when spun by hand. They don't like 7000 rpm shifts either.

 

The rear main can be wedged out with a screwdriver, just use some care. You can tap it back in with a small hammer. Go in square and with lubricant. Flyin' Miata makes a great little tool for installation.

 

The front seal on the trans comes out the same way, wedge a screwdriver and pry it out. Tap the new one in carefully. I have a piece of pipe machined down to fit the seal properly for installation. Replace the gasket also. Make sure the gasket stays in place when reinstalling. There should be a thin metal shim that sits on the outer race of the front bearing. About 3" in diameter and very thin. This needs to be reinstalled properly. I see a lot of them ground up inside the front bearing due to improper assembly. When the shim or gasket fall out of place, they make a big puddle on the floor of fresh trans fluid. And you get to use your new knowledge of trans repair again!!!!!

 

Metallic clutches basicly do not wear. They will chip, so visual inspection is good. Get a good clutch allignment tool. We use an old input shaft as they work better than the plastic allignment tools that come in a clutch kit.

 

Some people like to use anti seize on clutch splines. I use a VERY small amount of hi temp wheel bearing grease. Antiseize is designed to keep 2 parts from rusting together, not for lubrication. You do not need much grease.

 

Put a 2x4 block under the front of the engine during reinstall. This will keep the engine tilted back to match the angle of the trans. Put the trans in gear before lifting. The trans should go in with a good thump when properly seated. If you have to pull it up with a bolt, something is wrong. Install all the bellhousing bolts while the trans is still tilted down. Then remove the 2x4 and raise the trans to normal position for installation of the PPF.

 

Hopefully this helps, sorry about the rant

Dave

[LarryKing]

You have a splined shaft that passes through the clutch disk with a significantly smaller diameter section at the end of the input shaft that rides in the pilot bearing. I can't imagine that there is any way possible that the pilot bearing could back completely out of the flywheel once the transmission is bolted in place. Is there more clearance between the spines and the pilot bearing, in situ, than the width of the pilot bearing?

[Mark McCallister]

Thanks for the replies guys.  What led me to this point was that I needed to do another transmission swap (junkyard transmission was getting crunchy), and since I had never pulled the engine before, I decided to do the trans swap that way, with the intent to clean up some other minor issues, like the constant weeping of oil from the bell housing when parked.  I did not notice any problems with the pilot bearing, either in use or on inspection now - it looks undamaged and spins easily/smoothly/quietly by finger in my hand (obviously not under load).  I was about to leave the clutch on and deal with the leak later, when I noticed the pilot bearing out of position last night.  I never got actively dripping oil like Frank reports, but always had drips under the car while parked - the sealed garage floor is oil-damp about 1 foot in diameter centered around the bell housing weep hole after being parked for a few months.  One might postulate some of the transmission crunchyness was a result of some misalignment, but the fluid that came out looked horrible, so I am fairly sure there was an internal problem.  I also noticed one of the two long bellhousing-to-block bolts was visibly stretched after removal, which gives me some .  Thanks for the professional input Dave...that satisfaction of doing something I've never done before is pretty much the whole point of all of this racing stuff... 

[Tom Hampton]

Please read this entire post. The first section may piss off a few of you.

 

There appears to be a lot of people with first grade abilities and experience (remember abilities are normally directly related to experience) trying to do a 10th grade project. You guys are WAY over your heads. Trans removal is a 15-20 minute job for anyone with the tools and knowledge. Clutch flywheel, pilot bearing, Rear Main adds 10 minutes. Reinstall about 40 minutes. Entire job out the door in an hour and a half.

 

Your time, your wifes aggrevation, a dozen roses to keep her happy, tools purchased, loss of productivity, bandwidth; all add up to more than I would charge to do the job.

 

Value of knowledge learned, slight. Satisfaction of doing something you have never done before, PRICELESS

 

Now that I have vented:

 

When the trans is removed, the motor tilts down in back. As soon as the trans is free, the motor tilts down in front. When you pull the trans, the input shaft sticks in the pilot bearing and the wedge effect of engine going forward and trans backward pulls the pilot out of its hole in the flywheel. I consider it normal for the pilot to fall out. Pilot bearings are cheap and go bad often when subjected to 7000 rpm shifts and high temps. It just taps into the flywheel, nothing special. Check the release bearing for roughness when spun by hand. They don't like 7000 rpm shifts either.

 

The rear main can be wedged out with a screwdriver, just use some care. You can tap it back in with a small hammer. Go in square and with lubricant. Flyin' Miata makes a great little tool for installation.

 

The front seal on the trans comes out the same way, wedge a screwdriver and pry it out. Tap the new one in carefully. I have a piece of pipe machined down to fit the seal properly for installation. Replace the gasket also. Make sure the gasket stays in place when reinstalling. There should be a thin metal shim that sits on the outer race of the front bearing. About 3" in diameter and very thin. This needs to be reinstalled properly. I see a lot of them ground up inside the front bearing due to improper assembly. When the shim or gasket fall out of place, they make a big puddle on the floor of fresh trans fluid. And you get to use your new knowledge of trans repair again!!!!!

 

Metallic clutches basicly do not wear. They will chip, so visual inspection is good. Get a good clutch allignment tool. We use an old input shaft as they work better than the plastic allignment tools that come in a clutch kit.

 

Some people like to use anti seize on clutch splines. I use a VERY small amount of hi temp wheel bearing grease. Antiseize is designed to keep 2 parts from rusting together, not for lubrication. You do not need much grease.

 

Put a 2x4 block under the front of the engine during reinstall. This will keep the engine tilted back to match the angle of the trans. Put the trans in gear before lifting. The trans should go in with a good thump when properly seated. If you have to pull it up with a bolt, something is wrong. Install all the bellhousing bolts while the trans is still tilted down. Then remove the 2x4 and raise the trans to normal position for installation of the PPF.

 

Hopefully this helps, sorry about the rant

Dave

 

+1

 

DWPPS

 

priceless.

[Keith Novak]

On the other hand, it would take me 30 hrs driving each way to reach your shop and a whole lot of gas.  Neither would be convinient on a Saturday afternoon when I'm on track at 9 am.  Your average charge at a shop that doesn't work on Miatas day in and out isn't dirt cheap and trailering to someone who does (even locally) can easily be half the time it takes to do the job or more.  The right tools (especially a lift makes it a breeze but I can do it in an afternoon on my back.

 

As the saying goes, give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day.  Teach a man to fish and he'll sit in a boat drinking beer all day. 

[FTodaro]

1. Ok I am not as fast as Dave but in 4 to 5  hrs i was able to  pull the tranny, repace the RMS and put it back toghether. The good news is that the bottom of the tranny is dry. I do have  a lift which makes that job way easy.

[stillentwint17]

hey gang. Does the entire perimeter of the tranny need to make contact before i can begin threading the screws... The bottom is contacting but the top is off..

[stillentwint17]

Car   1       vs.         3rd Grader      0

 

Aw man, David was right, as usual. I bit off a bit more than i could chew on this one but I'd rather try and fail then not try at all. I still have 2 days until track, give or take, so I still have some time to fix the car.

 

Right now, I had the tranny partially on, but i had to pull the tranny off as i couldnt get the top of the tranny to make metal to metal contact. I think the tranny gasket got cocked over the starter and made a bit of a ripple. the top three screws wernt aligned. I checked the pilot bearing and wear on the splines and everything looked ok. No wires were pinched, phew. There is definetly a steep learning curve when youre bench pressing a transmission into place for your first time but its great.

 

When you put the 2x4 under the engine, does that datum the motor? Meaning the motor shoulndt rock when the tranny engages. i had a sh*tload of deflection. The splines engaged no problem and the input spigot engaged with the pilot bearing but the linkage between the tranny and motor was like an elephant sitting on the middle of a tightrope. I'm gonna try again in the morning.

 

time for a beer.   
 

[Bench Racer]

 

Richard, I use two old bolts with the head cut off to help align the
transmission.  You can also use all thread cut to proper length as well.
Put in the alignment bolts,  one on each side and rest transmission on
these. Then you can align as needed to stab the input shaft through the
pilot bearing and you are done. 
 

Holy eased tranny swap Batman. That is simply ingenous! Kudos Trimless.

Rick

 

Thanks, but I can't take credit for the idea. I learned the trick hanging around racers that are smarter than me.
 

[Bench Racer]

 

Richard, I use two old bolts with the head cut off to help align the
transmission.  You can also use all thread cut to proper length as well.
Put in the alignment bolts,  one on each side and rest transmission on
these. Then you can align as needed to stab the input shaft through the
pilot bearing and you are done. 
 

Holy eased tranny swap Batman. That is simply ingenous! Kudos Trimless.

Rick

 

Thanks, but I can't take credit for the idea. I learned the trick hanging around racers that are smarter than me.