78 replies to this topic

[Rob Burgoon]

Edit:  This post is a reply to a post Jim deleted that suggested that heavier sway bars would create mixed handling.  This was a misunderstanding as Jim thought I was talking about sway bar bind, not more anti-sway.  My car currently oversteers everywhere, it is not loose and pushy at the same time like this post on its own might suggest.

 

 

How in the h3ll do you end up with a car that is both pushy and loose at the same time by making small changes to sway bars?

 

Changing camber away from optimal or putting toe out in the rear or cranking the air pressure to the moon are examples of "taking away grip".

 

If I go up 50lbs on the front springs and go up 50lbs on the rear springs, I haven't taken away grip from both ends of the car necessarily, I've just changed the overall spring rate.  

 

Adding stiffer sway bars front and rear is a similar sort of change.  On a track that requires more independence in the suspension, it hurts.  On a perfectly smooth track where it just reduces body roll, that might help.

 

Now it could be that our cars prefer less sway bar everywhere due to having good camber curves, but that shouldn't have anything to do with pushy and death loose at the same time.

 

 

As long as you're not taking it to the extreme, sway bar changes just help decide which outside tire gives up first.  The trick is to balance the outside tires so they give up at the same time after having given their best effort at the best pressure and camber while in good contact with the road (shocks).

[Jim Drago]

How in the h3ll do you end up with a car that is both pushy and loose at the same time by making small changes to sway bars?

 

Changing camber away from optimal or putting toe out in the rear or cranking the air pressure to the moon are examples of "taking away grip".

 

If I go up 50lbs on the front springs and go up 50lbs on the rear springs, I haven't taken away grip from both ends of the car necessarily, I've just changed the overall spring rate.  

 

Adding stiffer sway bars front and rear is a similar sort of change.  On a track that requires more independence in the suspension, it hurts.  On a perfectly smooth track where it just reduces body roll, that might help.

 

Now it could be that our cars prefer less sway bar everywhere due to having good camber curves, but that shouldn't have anything to do with pushy and death loose at the same time.

 

 

As long as you're not taking it to the extreme, sway bar changes just help decide which outside tire gives up first.  The trick is to balance the outside tires so they give up at the same time after having given their best effort at the best pressure and camber while in good contact with the road (shocks).

 

Well it seems you have it all figured out so what are you asking us dummies for? 

 

I will go back to the first line of my post. I don't have problems getting my car to handle    

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Wow... why ask questions when u don't want no answers... just flip a.coin for you sway settings and go race

[Johnny D]

Did you try your car after you put new bushing in?

J~

[Rob Burgoon]

I kinda understand how springs and sway bars and corner weights are supposed to work.  I know how to make my car handle decently with a non-adjustable front bar.

 

What I don't know is how big a change to expect from adjusting the front bar since the front bar has only been adjustable since I put spacers in my end links this last weekend.

 

I would love to do a test day and sort all this out, but I don't think I have the time for a test day before the Majors.  So instead I'm polling the peanut gallery since some people have had a decade to play with 1.6 front sway settings and might be able to give a hint that will save me a session or two "trying to figure out what the knobs do".

[Rob Burgoon]

Did you try your car after you put new bushing in?

J~

 

Nope, and that's the plan if I don't get any useful info from anyone here.  Since I suspect that a more vertical end link means "a tiny bit more sway", I'll stand up the links, set it on soft-soft, and go run the majors, then f* the car up when I have time for it.

 

I'm talking about end link bushings, not suspension bushings.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Sager and I both tolded you not use full soft on the front... I knwo we are buth dumb dumbs so best of luck! 

[MPR22]

If the problem is pushy at entry and snap oversteer mid corner sounds like bound front bar. My preferred 1.6 setting begins with full soft front and disconnected rear. If I struggle to get the car to rotate in slow speed turns the rear bar gets reconnected, rarely a problem. If you connected your front end links with no driver weight you could be creating the preload you don't want. My 2 cents.

[Johnny D]

I don't know, but I couldn't image it being that much different, that your all crazy now.

Wondering if doing the suspension bushing screwed something up.

Alway good to start from the  baseline so you can get back A-B-A.

But I know that doesn't help now. 

 

I know you don't want the endlink to bind, so standing them up sounds the way to go.

Buy somebody a beer to come take a look, fresh eye's sometime helps.

J~

[Rob Burgoon]

Sager and I both tolded you not use full soft on the front... I knwo we are buth dumb dumbs so best of luck! 

 

 

The car has proven to be pretty good on full soft up front, so I'm not starting from an empty canvas here.  If what I had didn't work I'd take your advice on faith.

[Rob Burgoon]

I don't know, but I couldn't image it being that much different, that your all crazy now.

Wondering if doing the suspension bushing screwed something up.

Alway good to start from the  baseline so you can get back A-B-A.

But I know that doesn't help now. 

 

I know you don't want the endlink to bind, so standing them up sounds the way to go.

Buy somebody a beer to come take a look, fresh eye's sometime helps.

J~

 

 

This really isn't that complicated.  I had the old 1.8 bar and the car handled great.  I changed suspension bushings and the car handled great.  I put in the 1.6 front bar set to full soft and the car was oversteery.  I set the rear to full soft and the car was "a little oversteery, but not bad at all".  I'm trying to get rid of a little oversteer without resorting to dramatic ride height changes or tire pressure.

 

I've added spacers to the front end links and don't know yet if/how the car reacted to that.

[Jim Drago]

I think you said you are trying to make the front bar work in the stiff position?  From reading all of this.. That seems like a good place to start. 

[SaulSpeedwell]

Retracted.

[steveracer]

Retracted.

Damn!

 

Where's the MBPPS when you need it?

 

 

P.S. I run the front bar full stiff/rear bar full soft.

[Bench Racer]

I changed suspension bushings and the car handled great.

In an earlier post you said you changed the end END LINK BUSHINGS. Please make up your mind.

I've added spacers to the front end links and don't know yet if/how the car reacted to that.

My front LCA is the one tab type and I have a spacer to get the link vertical. No matter what hole your in with the front links, set the link vertical and FORGET about the links. If you change to a different hole, set the link vertical and FORGET about the links. Forget about if a slight tilt to the link is screweing with the bar set-up. Get link tilt out of you mind. When you change the hole location, set the link vertical................

 

I put in the 1.6 front bar set to full soft and the car was oversteery.  

I set the rear to full soft and the car was "a little oversteery, but not bad at all".  

I'm trying to get rid of a little oversteer without resorting to dramatic ride height changes or tire pressure.

It appears from your comments that softening the rear bar is reducing the oversteer and the car is, "not bad at all". Disconnect one end of the rear bar and go to the track and Have Fun.

 

Presume you you have correct set-up for curent track other than the sway bars. 

 

My NA car with 1.6 bars is in the mid hole of 3 holes at the rear and the link is vertical. The front bar is in the short hole of 2 holes and the link is tilted forward approx 1/2 inch. 

Side note:

IMHE, talking about matching fornt to rear bars link mounting distance is nonsense. The friken diameters are different, the bar lengths are different, the arm lengths are different, the tracks are different. I dought there is any magic code for the bars. KEEP track specific notes.

[Rob Burgoon]

In an earlier post you said you changed the end END LINK BUSHINGS. Please make up your mind.

My front LCA is the one tab type and I have a spacer to get the link vertical. No matter what hole your in with the front links, set the link vertical and FORGET about the links. If you change to a different hole, set the link vertical and FORGET about the links. Forget about if a slight tilt to the link is screweing with the bar set-up. Get link tilt out of you mind. When you change the hole location, set the link vertical................

 

It appears from your comments that softening the rear bar is reducing the oversteer and the car is, "not bad at all". Disconnect one end of the rear bar and go to the track and Have Fun.

 

Presume you you have correct set-up for curent track other than the sway bars. 

 

My NA car with 1.6 bars is in the mid hole of 3 holes at the rear and the link is vertical. The front bar is in the short hole of 2 holes and the link is tilted forward approx 1/2 inch. 

Side note:

IMHE, talking about matching fornt to rear bars link mounting distance is nonsense. The friken diameters are different, the bar lengths are different, the arm lengths are different, the tracks are different. I dought there is any magic code for the bars. KEEP track specific notes.

 

Johnny is the one that brought up my suspension bushing change, not me.  No reason to get prickish about it.  I've been running links without any spacer whatsoever.  It was not physically possible to reach the stiffer holes on the front sway bar since the link wouldn't tip that far.  It's a significant amount of angle.

 

Isn't the change between full soft and disconnected on the rear sway a big jump?  If I have a little bit of oversteer now won't that turn it into a big push?

 

 

 

Everyone else, if you don't know the answer to my question, don't bother posting.  This isn't "how should I setup my car?" this is "how big a change is it between the holes on the front sway bar?"  I don't understand how this could be so confusing, so I think you guys are trolling.  If so, f*ck off.  Seriously, if you're not going to try to answer the question, go find another thread to play in.

[Kyle Freiheit]

I don't know the answer, I did this awhile back but didn't save the work. Wth a little work with a tape measure and this spreadsheet you can get the answer, http://www.fatcatmot..._MSDS_1_6NA.htm

[CruzanTom]

I don't know the answer, I did this awhile back but didn't save the work. Wth a little work with a tape measure and this spreadsheet you can get the answer, http://www.fatcatmot..._MSDS_1_6NA.htm

 

Kyle,

 

Not sure about all of your spreadsheet values. In the lower right quadrant you list Unit Conversions and have 180 F to 82.2 C.  The hottest I ever ran was last summer at Roebling (Savannah) when it was 108 F   , which should be 42.2 C.   I am sure it doesn't get that warm in the NorthWest.   

 

This is a fun thread to read (and post) between races.   

[Zauskycop]

Okay..I'm new to the discussion, as I just got back from Watkins Glen.   Where is the car, in the turn oversteering...Entry..mid, or exit?

[Bench Racer]

This really isn't that complicated.  I had the old 1.8 bar and the car handled great.  I changed suspension bushings and the car handled great.  I put in the 1.6 front bar set to full soft and the car was oversteery.  I set the rear to full soft and the car was "a little oversteery, but not bad at all".  I'm trying to get rid of a little oversteer without resorting to dramatic ride height changes or tire pressure.
 
I've added spacers to the front end links and don't know yet if/how the car reacted to that.

Dude, I'm not being "prickish one bit. I was stating a fact as I read your post above.

 

 

No one has asked and I don't believe you have said if the oversteer situation is so bad that your required to counter steer.  ????

 

 

How long is the spacer you added to the front links?

 

 

With the spacers at the front links which hole are you in?

 

 

Please measure the horizontal distance from the front surface of your LCA single tab and the short hole (max stiff hole) on the bar arm. Drop a pendulum and neasure from the front of the single tab to the pendulum string.

 

 

Don't get all hung up about the spacers required to get the link somewhat vertical.

 

 

I had previously posted that my NA car has the single tab LCA, the front links are to the short holes (full stiff) and the link is tilted forward approx 1/2 inch when using a 1 inch long tube spacer.

 

 

If any one of us was at the track with you, we would all understand the visuals/measurements with your links. Ah, post a picture of your front tilted links.