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#21
Johnny D

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The word "stock" and racing don't really go together because you have tolerences and rules limits.

Everone will try to hit the limits for max performance at some point.

 

So every class in the beginning starts out like that, but over time it changes. The Arms race as you say.

Did in SM. Pro build is still stock, just at the limits.

Yes sealed is the way to go, but still room to hit the limits in other areas.

Racing is MFG's development ground. Better, stronger, faster.

Also not sure MFG's want it sealed for this fact.

 

So you may get some eyes rolling with your comments.

:twocents:

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#22
Bruce Wilson

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Sealed has a fairly large monetary overhead.  SM has gone a long way to prove that spec can be accomplished with a fairly solid set of rules, it just took years to get there.  But really important to note that pro SM engines were being built right from the beginning.


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#23
James York

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Haha. C'mon, Todd, this place is kinda quiet lately and Jim D needs the website traffic. :)

Seriously, as someone who's kind of a n00b to all this, what's wrong with sealed motors? Other race series (including SSM in the SCCA SFR) seem to have good results from sealing motors. At least that's what I've been led to believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I guess I'm just tired of seeing race series that are touted as "affordable racing" and then the arms race takes off and we see $30-40k SMs, Pro3 cars, Spec E30s, and God knows what top B-SPEC cars go for. That's hardly affordable for the regular Joes and Janes out there. Everytime I see this, it makes ChumpCar/Lemons racing more appealing. Heck, they even have better prizes!

 

I think this is one of the most misunderstand statements out there.  Affordable racing does not mean affordable winning. 

 

SM is very affordable racing....  winning, well different story.  I think winning in any competative class cost serious $$.


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#24
Rob Burgoon

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Losing is often affordable in any series unless they are marking up the tires or making you travel or something.


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#25
Charlie James

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Just as a point of reference, Jr just went out with the new weight at the WC race in California for practice 1 a few minutes ago and was .2 clear of the closest Mini and over 1 sec clear of Lipperini in the first Honda. The M2 still has no restrictor plate and weighs less than the Fit and Mini in excess of 100 lbs., so it seems to be doing ok at the right prep levels.

 

Jr and Sr don't seem to be breaking any letters of the rules, so the only real semi-issue is that everyone was "promised" over and over that this was not going to turn into a Spec Miata prep type of class. Mike Asselta and myself even had some animated conversations with competitors and officials that if that's what they mean, then they've got to stop it immediately. Unluckily, it turns out what they meant was that they aren't prepared or equipped to do anything except check for "Tech Shed" legal. That's fine, just not what was committed to on the front end by manufacturers. Sad for all of the other M2 competitors as they are getting their tails handed to them because of the weight that keeps being added to compensate for Jr/Sr.

 

This is a great class and a lot of fun to drive in with some very strong competitors, just hate that it has already headed down the path of prep outside of setup.


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#26
Tom Sager

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Just as a point of reference, Jr just went out with the new weight at the WC race in California for practice 1 a few minutes ago and was .2 clear of the closest Mini and over 1 sec clear of Lipperini in the first Honda. The M2 still has no restrictor plate and weighs less than the Fit and Mini in excess of 100 lbs., so it seems to be doing ok at the right prep levels.

 

Jr and Sr don't seem to be breaking any letters of the rules, so the only real semi-issue is that everyone was "promised" over and over that this was not going to turn into a Spec Miata prep type of class. Mike Asselta and myself even had some animated conversations with competitors and officials that if that's what they mean, then they've got to stop it immediately. Unluckily, it turns out what they meant was that they aren't prepared or equipped to do anything except check for "Tech Shed" legal. That's fine, just not what was committed to on the front end by manufacturers. Sad for all of the other M2 competitors as they are getting their tails handed to them because of the weight that keeps being added to compensate for Jr/Sr.

 

This is a great class and a lot of fun to drive in with some very strong competitors, just hate that it has already headed down the path of prep outside of setup.

I don't think there was ever any doubt that an arms race would occur in this class like all others.  Nature of racing.  Sealed motors might have helped some (easy to say, hard to do).  I think an IROC type series would be really cool where drivers show up and draw for the cars but that has so many challenges to put together and maintain.  


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#27
Rob Burgoon

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Just as a point of reference, Jr just went out with the new weight at the WC race in California for practice 1 a few minutes ago and was .2 clear of the closest Mini and over 1 sec clear of Lipperini in the first Honda. The M2 still has no restrictor plate and weighs less than the Fit and Mini in excess of 100 lbs., so it seems to be doing ok at the right prep levels.

 

Jr and Sr don't seem to be breaking any letters of the rules, so the only real semi-issue is that everyone was "promised" over and over that this was not going to turn into a Spec Miata prep type of class. Mike Asselta and myself even had some animated conversations with competitors and officials that if that's what they mean, then they've got to stop it immediately. Unluckily, it turns out what they meant was that they aren't prepared or equipped to do anything except check for "Tech Shed" legal. That's fine, just not what was committed to on the front end by manufacturers. Sad for all of the other M2 competitors as they are getting their tails handed to them because of the weight that keeps being added to compensate for Jr/Sr.

 

This is a great class and a lot of fun to drive in with some very strong competitors, just hate that it has already headed down the path of prep outside of setup.

 

What do you expect?  Them to just get booted for simply being curiously fast?


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#28
Johnny D

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Would you like to see Penalty Ballast per driver?

J~


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#29
Joe (dad) Jordan

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Just looked at 1st practice results.  It shows Kyle Keenan a spec miata racer from the Northwest leading the way by 2 seconds!  In a Kia!  Not sure if this is a mistake, but if it's real CONGRATS Kyle!  If it's real it should have the powers to be spinning!

 

Just as a point of reference, Jr just went out with the new weight at the WC race in California for practice 1 a few minutes ago and was .2 clear of the closest Mini and over 1 sec clear of Lipperini in the first Honda. The M2 still has no restrictor plate and weighs less than the Fit and Mini in excess of 100 lbs., so it seems to be doing ok at the right prep levels.

 

Jr and Sr don't seem to be breaking any letters of the rules, so the only real semi-issue is that everyone was "promised" over and over that this was not going to turn into a Spec Miata prep type of class. Mike Asselta and myself even had some animated conversations with competitors and officials that if that's what they mean, then they've got to stop it immediately. Unluckily, it turns out what they meant was that they aren't prepared or equipped to do anything except check for "Tech Shed" legal. That's fine, just not what was committed to on the front end by manufacturers. Sad for all of the other M2 competitors as they are getting their tails handed to them because of the weight that keeps being added to compensate for Jr/Sr.

 

This is a great class and a lot of fun to drive in with some very strong competitors, just hate that it has already headed down the path of prep outside of setup.


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#30
Charlie James

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What do you expect?  Them to just get booted for simply being curiously fast?

No, not at all, I respect them being fast. Just not what the Manufacturers said the deal was going in, don't care what the sanctioning bodies said, this class was to be run by the manufacturers committee and while they have been trying to equalize everyone, they are not the ones enforcing the rules. More of an oh well, now others know the game going forward.


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#31
Michael Colangelo

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Yeah, Kyle (in a Kia Rio) kicked butt. 2:03.3 during practice followed by Ernie, Jr (Mazda 2) at 2:05.6, and Robbie Davis (Mini) at 2:05.8.

Hmmm....how much are tickets? Sonoma is 5 hrs away from me via car.

On a side note, The Honda Fits seem fairly off pace. 2:06 (Lipperini) and several Fits in the 2:08s.

#32
Charlie James

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Would you like to see Penalty Ballast per driver?

J~

I would like to see this, even though we would have taken a big hit during the first 2 events. The manufacturers were the ones who didn't want the driver penalty ballast, thought they would keep it equal with by the make.


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#33
Charlie James

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Just looked at 1st practice results.  It shows Kyle Keenan a spec miata racer from the Northwest leading the way by 2 seconds!  In a Kia!  Not sure if this is a mistake, but if it's real CONGRATS Kyle!  If it's real it should have the powers to be spinning!

I see that on the WC results page, but he wasn't even shown on the live timing during session 1 or 2 or in the running commentary which says that Jr was fastest in both sessions. 

If that's real, you bet they are reeling a bit right now :)


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#34
Jamz14

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Hey Charlie,

 

I saw you drive in a couple of races at the beginning of the season (I think at COTA). You drove great races and I was pulling for you. Looking forward to seeing you up front tearing it up again.
 


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#35
Todd Lamb

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No, not at all, I respect them being fast. Just not what the Manufacturers said the deal was going in, don't care what the sanctioning bodies said, this class was to be run by the manufacturers committee and while they have been trying to equalize everyone, they are not the ones enforcing the rules. More of an oh well, now others know the game going forward.

Must. Resist. Commenting.


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#36
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Must. Resist. Commenting.

WTF, same comment second time this week, setting yourself up for the CRB. :bigsquaregrin:


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#37
Derrick Ambrose

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I was watching the qualifying this afternoon and it was tight at the front end of the field with the pole going to Robbie in the Mini.  This should be a good race on Saturday.  If anyone is wondering I am cheering for the Kia, Kyle is a local driver and we will be beating each other up next year in local B-Spec action.

 

-Derrick


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#38
Ernie Jr.

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Time for a race weekend recap.

So lets begin with weight; WC added another 65lbs coming to a total of 180 extra lbs then the pre season weight. It seems the Mazda is the only car getting any kind of weight added this year...

First practice went well, I spoke to Kyle after the session and he told me that his transponder was not working so WC tried to stopwatch his time. He knew it was wrong and tried to correct it because his data only showed a 2:06 at best. This is why he wasn't shown on the live timing.

Second practice was pretty standard, I was getting more used to the track but, track conditions slowed the times down from first practice.

Qualifying was interesting, I pushed and felt comfortable with my time of a 2:05.3. I was holding pole until Davis and Palmer teamed up to get Davis the pole at a 2:05.2 and Palmer 3rd with a 2:05.4. Davis' pole meant he was now points leader. It was setting up to be a great race.

Race 1.
At the start of the race I fell back to 4th place, then worked back up to 3rd place. A caution came out due to a Fiesta going on his roof. On the restart I got by the Honda, and started a pursuit of Davis. It took me til the last lap that I caught him. I went for a pass in turn 7 and it didn't work, but it did slow down his exit speed. I went on the inside of him as we headed into a tight chicane. He reacted to my action and started pushing me over, I moved over as much as possible til my right side wheels hit the dirt. Even then he continued to move over and we went side by side through the dirt launching me on 2 wheels and him into some tires. I got out ahead of him and took the win.

Race 2.
It was a really simple race. I started 1st and stayed in front, TC cars slowed me a little bit, but not enough for Palmer to catch me.

Tech.
My car passed tech completely. I wish I can say the same for some of the other drivers. Shea and PJ, both drivers in the Hondas were found illegal for not running restrictors. They were both dq'ed and fined 5000$.

Penalties.
WC somehow decided that it was my fault for the contact between me and Davis. Anyone who watches the race coverage says it was his fault for moving me over ino the dirt. I was penalized 30 points and put on probation.

The second penalty is a great one -_- After WC added all the weight we ran out of room to safely mount the weight on the passenger side. So we put 15 lbs in the spare tire location, we ARE ALLOWED to mount the spare back in the car. It weights 20+ lbs, WC decided to say that we are not allowed to mount an equal amount of weight in lead in that spot. So we assumed a fine would be given. We were half correct, WC decided to fine me 1000$ AND 50 points! 50 points for weight being mounted in the wrong spot!


Well sorry for the long post, and hope it clears some of this up. I look forward to Houston and trying to bring the championship home for Mazda.

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#39
Bench Racer

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Kid, keep on looking forward.  :thumbsup:      

 

Thanks for the up-date. Last weekend is in the history books.


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#40
Jamz14

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Ernie,

 

I haven't seen the race yet and I am unfamiliar with the passing rules for WC, but for NASA and SCCA, if the competitor hasn't brought his car half way up alongside, they can drive you all the way to the dirt and off track. Including to prevent you from coming fully alongside. Example, long straight, driver in front is holding his line in the middle of the track, overtaking driver pulls a nose alongside you. Leading driver notices and starts moving you over. He can move you completely off track and be in the right. At least this is what I have been told. I reference the recent video and post of E30s and this happening. I imagine the same is true for corner exit. If I am alongside but not halfway up, and on the outside of a corner, the inside driver can take you all the way to the wall and it is your responsibility to back out before being driven to the wall.

 

As far as them "rigging" the outcome. I'm curious what reason they would have for doing so? Why are they out to get you you think?


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