199 replies to this topic

[Jason J Ball]

So what your saying to all us 1.6L owners is to shut up and go buy/build a 99' since there cheap enough???  

 

I think I'd rather spend ~$500 on a header and some cam gears then spend another $16-20k building another car.

 

The real problem with getting the torque better for the 1.6L down below 5,500rpm is going to be having too much top end. The whole curve will shift up, not just the portion under 5,500.

[dfuser]

First off I really don't agree with the premises of the thread.  Road America is a unique track in the country, and it will take a few years to undo the effects it has had on the rulebook and competitive adjustments. 

 

All the track records around here are set with a 1.6, by a guy that owned all three with a max effort.   And the second longest straight I know of, Miller, the 1.6 is the car there too. 

 

But, to solve the problem put forth here - 

 

If you want to erase the perceived handicap of 1.6 tq below 5500 - just don't race it there!!!     Give the 1.6 cars a 7500 rpm limit, or 7350, and pull the RPM range up a tick.    It is almost a moot point at 5500, because that's just about downshift time.  With these low power cars, its always worth the shift to keep them spinning.

 

Kyle

Kyle,

 

COTA is another track where the 1.6 has no chance.  I am pretty sure there are many tracks as well. 

 

On the flip side, there are also tracks where the 1.6L is the car to have, and not the 99.

[Tyler Dahl]

Jason I never said that. If your starting a fresh build then I would go with a 99 because the cost isn't much different. If you have a 1.6 work on your race craft. Like Jim said in an earlier post, if your glued to the bumper of a 99 entering a corner prepare to get pulled down the straight away. It's called race craft, brake earlier to leave a gap and accelerate thru the corner to have a higher exit speed and surprisingly enough you can keep up and pass a 99. Also if your. 1.6 sees a dyno once a year and you don't adjust for temp/weather then your leaving even more on the table. There are plenty of places where the 1.6 is superior to the 99+ cars and I don't hear them asking for anything, you also have to take into account who's constantly complaint about this and where they show up on the results at big races.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Tyler, I don't disagree with anything you are saying but in a perfect world that is how you do it. But in a race you have plenty of 99's on your ass so if you lay back and try to leave a gap to get better exiting speed your going to get passed. Yes that works if your in a battle and no one else is on your bumper. If you don't get the pass done and you have to check up,now it will take you 3-4 corners to make it up and by that time your back to the same situation.

If these cars are equal you should be able to take any year car to any track and have a chance to win with a well prepped car. But there not,yes we are close but not to that point yet. Yes Jim and the board are doing a good job to get us to that place but were not quite their yet. What is the answer I don't know because they are totally diff.cars (motor sizes,weight,handling etc....).

If you ask me the 1.6 is a lot more fun to drive and less forgiving then the 99's. Yes the 1.6 can do some great lap times in qualifying but my midway through the race you start to over heat the tires and you start to fall off. Where. The 99's can do more consistent lap times throughout the race IMHO. Like I said in a perfect world you should be able to show up with any year car at any track and have a chance to win !

[Jason J Ball]

Jason I never said that. If your starting a fresh build then I would go with a 99 because the cost isn't much different. If you have a 1.6 work on your race craft. Like Jim said in an earlier post, if your glued to the bumper of a 99 entering a corner prepare to get pulled down the straight away. It's called race craft, brake earlier to leave a gap and accelerate thru the corner to have a higher exit speed and surprisingly enough you can keep up and pass a 99. Also if your. 1.6 sees a dyno once a year and you don't adjust for temp/weather then your leaving even more on the table. There are plenty of places where the 1.6 is superior to the 99+ cars and I don't hear them asking for anything, you also have to take into account who's constantly complaint about this and where they show up on the results at big races.

 

I was being sarcastic, but its not far from what is happening just due to attrition. See I bought a 1.6L because I didn't know any better 6yrs ago and built it myself and then re-built it after wrecking. So I have a ton more than just the car invested. I have a garage full of stuff for the 1.6L. I almost jumped to a 99' before I sourced the 1.6L tub, but I couldn't sell my 1.6L in wrecked condition and get anything out of it. Now I'm looking for a 01' up because the 99' will be DOA in 2 yrs, mark my words. Racing is a very expensive hobby and there are those with much deeper pockets who will continue the development and jump to where they see any advantage, perceived or otherwise. This ever moving march forward is the nature of racing. What concerns me most about this march is the deflation of value of the 1.6L cars. If I do build an new car, I'll probably just end up keeping the old one since I won't be able to sell it for anywhere close to what I have in it. 

 

Now back to the threads original premise.

 

I've watched the Video of Buras. He's completely surrounded by 99's and he doesn't pull out and try to pass. He doesn't because he'll get freight trained by the 99's. And he can't lay back and get a run, because he's being pushed from behind. Race craft won't get that car to the front in that field!

 

If we do adjust the torque on the 1.6L we'll probably need to restrict it to limit its peak HP. We need to find a way to allow the 1.6L to still hold some value. Add making it more competitive will certainly do that. We can accomplish this in many ways (Disclaimer:I'm an engineer, not an engine builder)

 

1) Open up the Intake/exhaust (port/polish)

2) Add CAM's and adjustable gears

3) Megasquirt ECU

4) Overbore/Compression

5) Lightened Flywheel

6) Any combination of the above

 

Like I said before, some/all of these will give us better torque down low, but it will also raise the peak hp/tq. So we'll need to make adjustments

 

1) Increased weight (Can only do this to a point then we'll introduce brake issues)

2) Restriction

 

Me personally, I would invest ~$1500 on a few upgrades. We're already machining the heads so adding port/polish would not be too much of a stretch. Cleaning up an exhaust manifold can be done in anyone's garage. Anyway, we have 1 more year under the current rule set. If it keeps going the direction it is, the NA will be gone in 5 yrs 1.6 and 1.8. So there needs to be an adjustment either to keep the NA viable or phase it out completely.

[LarryKing]

Now I'm looking for a 01' up because the 99' will be DOA in 2 yrs, mark my words

 

Mark my words - the 1999-2004 will be obsolete once the 2006 MX-5 joins SM.

 

Oh yeah - it will happen.

 

I've concluded that SM will remain a popular class - but the demographic is shifting - or has already shifted. It has not been an "entry-level class" for years. Can we removed that phrase from the GCR? The grassroots teams are dwindling. As long as there are well-healed teams to take their place it's not a problem.

[pat slattery]

Tyler, I don't disagree with anything you are saying but in a perfect world that is how you do it. But in a race you have plenty of 99's on your ass so if you lay back and try to leave a gap to get better exiting speed your going to get passed. Yes that works if your in a battle and no one else is on your bumper. If you don't get the pass done and you have to check up,now it will take you 3-4 corners to make it up and by that time your back to the same situation.

If these cars are equal you should be able to take any year car to any track and have a chance to win with a well prepped car. But there not,yes we are close but not to that point yet. Yes Jim and the board are doing a good job to get us to that place but were not quite their yet. What is the answer I don't know because they are totally diff.cars (motor sizes,weight,handling etc....).

If you ask me the 1.6 is a lot more fun to drive and less forgiving then the 99's. Yes the 1.6 can do some great lap times in qualifying but my midway through the race you start to over heat the tires and you start to fall off. Where. The 99's can do more consistent lap times throughout the race IMHO. Like I said in a perfect world you should be able to show up with any year car at any track and have a chance to win !

Bob you hit the nail on the head with your comments.  Also if you have several 1.6 cars to draft with that helps, but that doesn't happen much around this part of the country and 1.6 cars don't draft well with 99 cars

[dfuser]

Mark my words - the 1999-2004 will be obsolete once the 2006 MX-5 joins SM.

But they will never be able to make run in the same class.  Which will put us in even a bigger problem trying to make cars that are drastically different equal in the same class.  Wake up and smell the roses....

[LarryKing]

Never say never.

 

If you want to be competitive just sell your 99+ for pennys on the dollar and buy a 2006. Hey, no one said racing was cheap.

[pat slattery]

When they introduced the 99 cars we said that about the value of the 1.6 cars and they just scoffed at us saying that wasn't going to happen.  Look at it now.  

[Todd Green]

Personally I don't want more power for my 1.6.  More power means more weight.  I already have 80 lbs of ballast in the car.  I feel that it's absurd that I have to do that in the first place.  I don't tell you how often you can dyno, flow bench parts, do test-n-tune days, show up to events with multiple sets of stickers/shaved tires, how many engines you can use per year, etc.  So don't tell me that I have to drop a "ton of lead" in my car because you aren't willing to optimize the nut behind the wheel.  Now I'm not saying we should make it so that you have to be 5'4" and a buck twenty to race, but something reasonable like 185 lbs for driver weight should be the limit.  (Mind you I'm way, way under 185, though 6'2", so I'm not just picking my weight.)  I find it insulting that we've set the rules to accommodate ludicrous amounts of weight.  It'd be no different than me telling you how many sets of tires you can use in a season to match my budget.  Then again, with the obesity rate nearly tripling in my lifetime, I'm sure I'm in the minority on this subject.

[Todd Tagget]

Todd, 

You've crossed the line..  

Do you have any clue as to how much $$ I've put into getting a  middle aged  body this size ?? 

Lead is cheaper than booze and food.. 

Start bulking up dude!!!!

[Todd Green]

Todd, 

You've crossed the line..

Do you have any clue as to how much $$ I've put into getting a  middle aged  body this size ?? 

Lead is cheaper than booze and food.. 

Start bulking up dude!!!!

Figured I'd stir something up, but how many times can we play ring around the rosie about 1.6 torque?  Yawn.  Let's go down to 2250.   Benchy gets his "torque" he wants and no one has to spend a dime.  Just get in shape.  Anyone who wants to eat his cake and have it too can drive a 99+.  There's just something sacrilegious when your race car weighs (almost) more than the street car.

 

I'll bulk up when I stop rock climbing.  We obsess about our body's power-to-weight ratio much more than our car's.  That being said, we do have to do beers next time you're out!  NASA Champs was way too hectic.

[pat slattery]

Todd might be on to something.  Why not lower the weight to 2250 on the 1.6, allow some items to removed on the 1.6 that you can't at the present to help get the weight down.  Than if need be you can adjust the plate on the other cars.  Probably the cheapest, less intrusive to any class possible fix

[Rob Burgoon]

Todd might be on to something.  Why not lower the weight to 2250 on the 1.6, allow some items to removed on the 1.6 that you can't at the present to help get the weight down.  Than if need be you can adjust the plate on the other cars.  Probably the cheapest, less intrusive to any class possible fix

 

Only trouble is it makes the performance "envelope" of the cars further apart.  You'll need a bigger gap between a 1.6 and a 99 going into a corner to not get boned on exit.  I'd be less likely to buy a 1.6 in a field full of 99s with that.

 

So far I think I like bolt ons and/or spec cams best, preferably with a restrictor plate.

 

I'd like to also take a moment to say screw the class philosophy and its SS roots.  The goal here is SPEC, not STOCK.

[Tom Sager]

Todd might be on to something.  Why not lower the weight to 2250 on the 1.6, allow some items to removed on the 1.6 that you can't at the present to help get the weight down.  Than if need be you can adjust the plate on the other cars.  Probably the cheapest, less intrusive to any class possible fix

This would certainly improve the lap times of the 1.6 but it increases the "cars are different" gap.    The $40K Miata thread seems to suggest that we aren't going the put limits on spending or prep effort any time soon so why not allow rule changes that make the cars more the same and put this debate to rest as best we can. It's not hard.  It simply takes the will to do it.

 

• Allow all NA cars to update to NB suspension
• Allow early 1.8 engines in 1.6 cars
• Increase plate size of NA 1.8 cars to the point that they make the same power as '99.
• Allow '94-'95 to update to '96 engine management
• If some want to keep 1.6 engines but need more torque, put a 1.6 engine package together that does that with a restrictor
• Adjust weight of all cars to be equal.  

Now it really doesn't matter what car you have.  The rules provide a path to equality and you can spend and prep your way there.  

[pat slattery]

Wouldn't it be nice to have cars that were equal but didn't require a 40K build, and get back to the roots of SM.  I am sure those that spent 40k and the builders wouldn't like it but it would be good for the class. 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Pat i think your current car would qualify for CHUMP CAR????  I have heard stories that it is very good racing over there in CHUMP!  Problem solved...

[Tom Sager]

Wouldn't it be nice to have cars that were equal but didn't require a 40K build, and get back to the roots of SM.  I am sure those that spent 40k and the builders wouldn't like it but it would be good for the class. 

I agree with those that say you don't have to spend $40K but getting the cars more "equal" is very possible.  

[James York]

Wouldn't it be nice to have cars that were equal but didn't require a 40K build, and get back to the roots of SM.  I am sure those that spent 40k and the builders wouldn't like it but it would be good for the class. 

Sounds nice, I think they race those in eutopia.

 

On a seriousness note though, instead of posting just wishes, why don't you formulate a rules adjustment to help steer the class to your objective.