199 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

I would love to see a 1.6 win at MRLS at the Runoffs so Dave can STFU for a little bit.

J~

[Ron Alan]

Um...... I'm pretty sure that my 1.6's won every race at the NASA championships last month.... We have consistently beaten a lot of the CA top prep 99's at Laguna, Sears, T-Hill and other West Coast tracks over the last 5 years, and we have won the 25 Hours of Thunderhill twice in a 1.6L so I guess once I figure out how to build a 1.6L then it will be an over dog?  I'm confused.......  Believe it or not, there is a West Coast and if I recall correctly we have at least 2 SCCA National Champions from out here.

And though i heard rumors off new builds in the North, I hope there are a handful of good West Coast 1.6 drivers that come ready next October!  Unfortunately Brian didnt help matters any with his 2 wins at Laguna this year...but at least now it all makes sense

[Johnny D]

I do apologizes for my acronym but I do feel MRLS is the best chance for the 1.6.

Daytona, mmm, better not bring a knife to a gun fight.

J~

[Bench Racer]

Thread topic:
1.6 torque & 99 torque below 5,500 rpm with no masking 

As usual there were many tangent posts within the thread outside the scope of the thread.

Jim Drago, my racecraft isn't required, it was easier to watched the Buras 2012 June Sprints video again. Buras in his 1.6 didn't draft by one 99 with a 38 mm restrictor and a weight of 2400 pounds. Buras made one straight line pass to the right side of Berry after Long passed berry at the Kink, presume Berry may have been a bit unsettled after Long's pass. Most likely Buras stuck his nose out a time  or two and knew the chanses of a psss without a pusher were someplace between zero and none. 

Pat  to answer your question, 1.6 highest finish position (hopefully no mistakes) at the Road America Runoffs were:

2009 Slattery 8th     (sorry Pat, it got lost in the shuffle)

2010 Slattery 10th

2011 Slattery 11th

2012 Buras 13th

2013 Blaser 42nd

With no dissrespect left coasters, the 99 evolution has started out there and if the top 20 qualifers from the 2013 Runoffs come out for next years Runoffs the 99 evolution will gain some real traction.

My only goal of starting this thread was to attempt to get 1.6er's to see the light under 5,500 rpm's.

And for Johnny D., if I don't come out next year, you can bet I'll watch the 99 + clean house streeming live.

Ron, the end.

  

[Ron Alan]

Man you're up late Dave! I was just completing what Jim wanted to write    Like you...my knowledge is limited, sorry I cant offer anything!

[Andrew Warren]

Either everyone is switching to newer cars simply because they're new, or they're switching for another reason. As far as I'm concerned, I would consider myself to have a higher-end 1.6L and there's no way I can keep up with an equivalent driver in a 99+. I'll encourage - in fact challenge any top 99+ driver to get in my car and run faster lap times. The fact is that while there are a few statistical anomaly 1.6L's that are capable of producing the #'s to compete with the newer cars, It's much more common to see a newer car with a competitive/equal advantage... i.e. 10/10 1.6 = 6/10 99...

 

While I haven't been around as long as many people here, I've been racing long enough to see the 1.6 slip out of any competitiveness. If this weren't true, more people would be running them - and running them up front. 

 

Now, I would consider myself extremely lucky to find myself on the podium when I often see myself out braking, turning, and "throttling" my competitors to the extent where I should walk away from them but instead I find myself spending the whole lap trying to find a way to hold them off on the straits.

 

That's one of the reasons why my 1.6 is for sale. The 1.6 needs Torque... I become frustrated by spending my time trying to re-gain lost ground on the straits as a result.

[pat slattery]

Thread topic:
1.6 torque & 99 torque below 5,500 rpm with no masking 

As usual there were many tangent posts within the thread outside the scope of the thread.

Jim Drago, my racecraft isn't required, it was easier to watched the Buras 2012 June Sprints video again. Buras in his 1.6 didn't draft by one 99 with a 38 mm restrictor and a weight of 2400 pounds. Buras made one straight line pass to the right side of Berry after Long passed berry at the Kink, presume Berry may have been a bit unsettled after Long's pass. Most likely Buras stuck his nose out a time  or two and knew the chanses of a psss without a pusher were someplace between zero and none. 

Pat  to answer your question, 1.6 highest finish position (hopefully no mistakes) at the Road America Runoffs were:

2010 Slattery 10th

2011 Slattery 11th

2012 Buras 13th

2013 Blaser 42nd

With no dissrespect left coasters, the 99 evolution has started out there and if the top 20 qualifers from the 2013 Runoffs come out for next years Runoffs the 99 evolution will gain some real traction.

My only goal of starting this thread was to attempt to get 1.6er's to see the light under 5,500 rpm's.

And for Johnny D., if I don't come out next year, you can bet I'll watch the 99 + clean house streeming live.

Ron, the end.

  

We had an 

8th, I believe it was 2009 also.

 

I believe that was the highest finish at RA Runoffs

[chris haldeman]

Um...... I'm pretty sure that my 1.6's won every race at the NASA championships last month.... We have consistently beaten a lot of the CA top prep 99's at Laguna, Sears, T-Hill and other West Coast tracks over the last 5 years, and we have won the 25 Hours of Thunderhill twice in a 1.6L so I guess once I figure out how to build a 1.6L then it will be an over dog? I'm confused....... Believe it or not, there is a West Coast and if I recall correctly we have at least 2 SCCA National Champions from out here.

Sean your cars are the perfect example of a great car!! Sadly they stay on the west coast. I truely believe in the 1.6 and will enjoy building one.

[steveracer]

Sean your cars are the perfect example of a great car!! Sadly they stay on the west coast. I truely believe in the 1.6 and will enjoy building one.

I'll make you a deal on a trade...

[Parity]

I don't think any discussions about torque, power to weight, suspension geometry, development, etc is going to put this to rest. When top teams build, run, and win in a 1.6 THEN they will be more convincing.

[jdmrrs]

I want to thank Jim Drago for previously posting dyno sheets and sharing the calculations for determining weight handicaps.

To answer his challenge about 1.6 torque below 5500 rpm it seems to me that the most fruitful area to explore is head shaving (to raise compression) and cam timing gears. Of course, someone would need to do the dyno work to develop hard numbers. Shaving and/or gears would seem to be consistent with the Spec Miata philosophy of keeping it close to stock and containing cost. Since the ability to accelerate is a function of available torque at any given rpm: looking at the dyno sheets, the area under the torque curve, 4000-5500, suggests a 250# weight handicap for ’99 vs. the 1.6 but looking at torque 4000-7000 calculates to a 2460 ’99 weight. Let the controversy reignite but the additional weight should have minimal effect on braking and cornering speed.

Are there sources of data that could provide some insight on Miata cam gears and head shaving?

Relatively new to Spec Miata but not engineering or racing,

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

i have a good suggestion !
 
How about having a staggered start with the 99 up cars starting and the pre 99's in the second wave and score them separate.This way scca doesn't have to have an extra group to run and we wont have to change anything on the cars. Problem solved and everyone is happy without spending any money. This will bring all the 1.6's out of storage and bring the value back up on them.I hate too see all these 15 to 20k 1.6's going for 6 to 10k. We did this when i was racing super bikes and us experts started up front and the novice started in the second wave,and we did this without any problems.I can't see why we couldn't do the same thing.
just an option !

[Todd Green]

How about having a staggered start with the 99 up cars starting and the pre 99's in the second wave and score them separate.

This only works if you have large numbers of SMs at the race. Smaller regions already run SM with other groups, so you'd have to do a triple split start and you'd be back to racing a few other people which negates one of the best reasons of racing in SM.

[KW78]

First off I really don't agree with the premises of the thread.  Road America is a unique track in the country, and it will take a few years to undo the effects it has had on the rulebook and competitive adjustments. 

 

All the track records around here are set with a 1.6, by a guy that owned all three with a max effort.   And the second longest straight I know of, Miller, the 1.6 is the car there too. 

 

But, to solve the problem put forth here - 

 

If you want to erase the perceived handicap of 1.6 tq below 5500 - just don't race it there!!!     Give the 1.6 cars a 7500 rpm limit, or 7350, and pull the RPM range up a tick.    It is almost a moot point at 5500, because that's just about downshift time.  With these low power cars, its always worth the shift to keep them spinning.

 

Kyle

[Bench Racer]

First off I really don't agree with the premises of the thread.   It is almost a moot point at 5500, because that's just about downshift time.  With these low power cars, its always worth the shift to keep them spinning.

 

Kyle

I wasn't going to post any further on this thread.

 

You make my point exactly. When the 1.6 is below 5,500 for any reason the 99 wins the drag race every time. On the other hand I totally agree with you provided the 1.6 is never required to race below 5,500 rpm.

 

         

[Tyler Dahl]

Just because you can't drive a car around its flaws doesn't mean you need to constantly bitch about it. Yes the 99 has more torque but good hell the 99 has to slow down more to but we shouldn't make it lighter so the corner speeds are the same.

I wouldn't recommend an open 99+ class, right now with restrictors you don't need the best flowing manifold. Once you eliminate the straw those with the resources will find the best flowing parts that aren't needed at this point.

I have a 99 now but mainly because they are in far better shape then most 1.6's you can find and cheaper when they are of same condition. I can say how great it is since I haven't been able to work out the bugs yet. Also my 1.6 got crunched but I plan to build another because I have lots of parts.

[Parity]

@ Tyler - '99's cheaper than 1.6's in same condition? Around here it's the exact opposite. Plenty on decent 1.6's for 10k but a similar condition '99 will run 18k-20k. 

[pat slattery]

[Ron Alan]

@ Tyler - '99's cheaper than 1.6's in same condition? Around here it's the exact opposite. Plenty on decent 1.6's for 10k but a similar condition '99 will run 18k-20k. 

Donors I believe was the reference. Have bought 4 cars(99) in the last year...2 ran and 2 didnt...all straight. Paid $1800-$2800(2 came with matching hardtops!) Granted, the same condition NA will be $500 to $1500. $1k is not a budget breaker for a 10 year newer car...I think this is the trend IMO. 

[Tyler Dahl]

Yes I was talking about donors not ready to go cars.