67 replies to this topic

[davew]

I sell a lot of ACT clutches, so I may be biased. But this my honest opinion.

 

OEM style clutch discs will not survive very long with 7000 rpm upshifts and abusive downshifts. For our purposes you NEED a cintered metal type clutch design to take our abuse. I only have experience with ACT and have never had a problem.

 

The cintered metal clucth disc like more clamping force than the oem "organic" discs. It is my opinion that the clutch engineers match clamping force to the disc. So, I like matched sets of pressure plate and disc. I have never felt that the ACT was to heavy of a pedal effort. But to each his own opinion.

 

Cintered metal discs do not absorb oil. There for any oil that gets on them becomes a lubricant, which causes slippage.

 

Guys like Drago and Saul do a lot of work on there cars. Motor changes etc. They have the chance to inspect their clutch often. If you want a clutch package that you can put in and forget about for a few years, I recomend the ACT.

 

Dave

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I ran the clutch Drago suggests lat season and this season, it looks like it still has about a season left on it, I just pulled the trans and tore the PP and clutch off to really inspect.

 

I ran about 10 weekends in 2012 in SM only and ran about 10 in 2013 doubling up in SM and STL.  Clutch still grabs like  a mother!

[DrDomm]

My point was...why is there a choice?  If the stock disc is inadequate, specify one aftermarket disc.  If the stock pressure plate is adequate, mandate it.

 

Anyway, taking this thing apart just made me think.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Why can other be no open rules? I don't like tomatoes but your free to eat all you want... learned to talk like this after a trip to Cali

[Ron Alan]

My point was...why is there a choice? If the stock disc is inadequate, specify one aftermarket disc. If the stock pressure plate is adequate, mandate it.

Anyway, taking this thing apart just made me think.

Guess you'll have to look at brakes also! Bottom line is any performance advantage in these wear items is available to all...as is a pro motor if you so desire! You can even pick 1 of 5 different cars to build! In other words, it's Spec at its basic form with options

[DrDomm]

Guess you'll have to look at brakes also! Bottom line is any performance advantage in these wear items is available to all...as is a pro motor if you so desire! You can even pick 1 of 5 different cars to build! In other words, it's Spec at its basic form with options

 

I'm not complaining...just seems blatantly contrary to the term "Spec". 

[svvs]

Once upon a time in the olden days of Spec Miata I think there was some magic light clutch being run.....this clutch was made illegal because performance advantage and cost I believe.

 

Maybe SM5 will set out to be a more "Spec" class, but at the end of the day what we have is pretty good.

[Keith Novak]

I'm not complaining...just seems blatantly contrary to the term "Spec".

I don't agree.  In engineering geek terms, building to a specification means you have to follow the requirements written into the spec but not everything is covered and you have latitude when it comes to the areas not covered or explicitly left open.  Very different than what's termed "build to print" where all builders must follow a cook book exactly and there is no latitude at all.

[SaulSpeedwell]

My point was...why is there a choice?  If the stock disc is inadequate, specify one aftermarket disc.  If the stock pressure plate is adequate, mandate it.

 

Anyway, taking this thing apart just made me think.

 

I'll take a stab at this one.

 

Short answer:  No good reason! (..that we did not "spec" a clutch, or list of clutches, from the get-go)

 

Long answer:  Myself, and others, BEGGED BEGGED BEGGED for one or more clutches to be "spec'd".  Several people on here (most of them argumentative cheapasses but not frontrunners) objected, because they didn't want to spend $100-$250 in the event the powers-that-be spec'd some clutch other than the one THEY already had.  Despite that "we" tried to tell those people that there was a giant loophole waiting to be exploited, "they" didn't care.  So ... the $100-250 clutches became $600 clutches comprised of stock-like pressure plates with custom aluminum pressure rings faced with cast iron (saved a few LBs) ... and then they became completely custom all-aluminum $1200 clutches with discs that looked like compressed felt, which had to be rebuilt about every 6 weekends or 2 big "slippy" trips up the trailer ramps, whichever came first.  (Anyone that saw me pull into my trailer at 15 mph in those years, now you know why!).

 

The recent/present SMAC/CRB is the best you've ever had.  They are smart enough to be benevolent dictators when needed, and also smart enough to know when to ignore cheapasses and midpackers that, frankly, do NOT know what is good for them. 

 

The rule you have now is fine.  No more part-aluminum $600 clutches or all-aluminum $1200 clutches.  You can run what you want and can get ahold of for "cheap", with essentially no performance advantage.  The difference between the heaviest disc and the lightest disc is less than one pound.  If you are good enough to worry about that, then you should be lightening your wheel spacers, studs, rotors, and spending a lot of garage and MS Excel time trying to figure out which 13 lb wheel has the lowest rotational inertia.

 

If it had been up to me, we would have spec'd everything until the majority complained and voted to open it up.  We'd be arguing about adding the '99 about now, instead of eating our own children by adding the '99 in 2006 (?) just because Mazda and 3 shills disguised as former SSB racers wanted the car in.    But, once the toothpaste is out of the tube, it is hard to put it back in.

 

SM is still the best class in the SCCA ... I'm amazed "we" didn't screw it up even more by now!

[DrDomm]

I don't agree.  In engineering geek terms, building to a specification means you have to follow the requirements written into the spec but not everything is covered and you have latitude when it comes to the areas not covered or explicitly left open.  Very different than what's termed "build to print" where all builders must follow a cook book exactly and there is no latitude at all.

 

Ok, Keith.  Technically you're correct that for SM the "spec" is that it's "open".  But the idea of a class that puts "Spec" in its name, is that as much as possible is "specified".  I'm ok with the option to use the ACT pressure plate and any disc, but to me...that's contrary to the intent of a Spec class. 

 

Maybe it truly doesn't matter from a performance standpoint, but it matters that people spend time and money experimenting and trying to find an advantage.

[DrDomm]

Thanks for the history lesson, Saul.

 

(Not sure how non-compliant parts were a "loophole", though)

[Jim Drago]

Thanks for the history lesson, Saul.
 
(Not sure how non-compliant parts were a "loophole", though)

Domm
Saul nailed it.. The clutches were not non compliant in any way whatsoever with the rule as written. The rule was not written as well as it should have been and a "loophole" was left. It was exploited as Saul described.

I dont even rememeber what the old rule was. Thanksfully for me, I only had a $600 clutch and the 1200 clutch was made illegal a few weeks before I was to buy one. They started in the 1.6 cars and were just becoming available in th 1.8 cars when the plug was pulled by the CRB. BTW, I was not on SMAC or CRB then

[Keith Novak]

Ok, Keith.  Technically you're correct that for SM the "spec" is that it's "open".  But the idea of a class that puts "Spec" in its name, is that as much as possible is "specified

I don't agree with "as much as possible is specified".  I'd leave it to "as much as we consider important is specified and we'll argue over new things we think may be important every year."
 

I could spend a lifetime trying to define "as much as possible".  I could probably find people to spend years redefining the tolerances on parts I didn't even know were in my car. How much of that is important?

 

Does your fluids choice matter? Brake line diameter?  Radiator selection?  Studs and lug nut selection?  The answer to all is ultimately yes if you put them in the context of all the other things you can also do at the same time and when they may be relevant.  If you try to make it a comprehensive formula however, you'll drive the cost way up and alienate a lot of drivers/teams who like fidgeting with stuff and seeing if it's better.  You'll ruin any development in the class.  If you have a class at all, you'll have houses of "Skip Barber" type places that rent cars built identical in every way imaginable and it will be an arrive and drive experience complete with catering and a moist towel at the end of your race.  Not to mention you spend your weekend with all the anal retentive people who want to race that way and will still complain they think the 23 car must be better than the 31 car.  If I want to race like that, I assure you it will be in something more sexy than a '95 Miata.

 

The whole philosophy of spec vs. build to print is that by specifying the important stuff, you allow the builders to come up with better ideas than before..within limits.  If they find a strong rationale to challenge the spec, they can do so.  That can be opening something up (engine rules have certainly changed) or closing things off like super expensive clutches or ground effect exhaust systems.

[SaulSpeedwell]

DommSaul nailed it.. The clutches were not non compliant in any way whatsoever with the rule as written. The rule was not written as well as it should have been and a "loophole" was left. It was exploited as Saul described.I dont even rememeber what the old rule was. Thanksfully for me, I only had a $600 clutch and the 1200 clutch was made illegal a few weeks before I was to buy one. They started in the 1.6 cars and were just becoming available in th 1.8 cars when the plug was pulled by the CRB. BTW, I was not on SMAC or CRB then

Old exploitable rule was something like 'Any clutch that bolts to an unmodified stock flywheel'?

Thank God we added the words 'ONE-PIECE' to the wheel rule, too! That was going to get ugly and expensive!

[LarryKing]

 

but not everything is covered and you have latitude when it comes to the areas not covered or explicitly left open

 

"If it doesn't say you can then you can't"

 

 

You'll ruin any development in the class.

 

When did SM become a "development class?" Plenty of production classes if you must diddle.

 

 

intent of a Spec class

 

Stop, you're killing me

 

 

argumentative cheapasses

 

Hey!

[DrDomm]

Ok Keith, we'll just disagree...not a big deal.

[Ron Alan]

we'll just disagree...not a big deal.

We are such simple creatures...this never works with my wife

[Keith Novak]

"If it doesn't say you can then you can't"

 

 

When did SM become a "development class?" Plenty of production classes if you must diddle.

 

 

Stop, you're killing me

 

 

Hey!

"If it doesn't say you can then you can't"  Unless the "old timers" say that you really can but it was somehow forgotten in the rules or they "meant" you can but didn't write the rule that way.  Despite that, lots of stuff is still left open.  Radiators, clutches, shift knobs, fluids, brake line diameters....  There's still a lot left open, and virtually every year I've done this, the rules have changed so apparently there is some development going on and the rules react to that development.  I think I've heard that some people have even started driving NBs with adjustable timing, fuel pressure and everything.

[SaulSpeedwell]

OK, for what it is worth:  Re: "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't ... ":  THAT horse left the toothpaste tube (haha) when Pobst and Galati were winning Runoffs with Mazda-provided shocks, the same quality of motors you can buy today*** for $6K (but YOU can buy them, back then YOU couldn't?), cam blanks with part numbers cast in, Daughtery won umpteen National Champs with Sunbelt stickers on his "Showroom Stock" Miata, etc.

 

The time to put that toothpaste back in the barn (haha) was then.   TWENTY years later, the only rule that matters is the Tech Shed and your reputation.  If you want to go down in history as Smokey Yunick, fine.  If you want to tell everyone your car was 100% legal to the GCR with your hand on a Bible, fine. If you want to do both, then you can petition to be a pledge of The Royal Order Of Noble And Respectful Cheaters.  (If you bought 10 of anything and flowed them or dyno'd them, you've got a good story to become a member!)

 

No dog in the hunt anymore, and anyone that knows me knows that I wish SM was like SRF, except with an omniscient God that would taser you in the eye if you cheated ... but that isn't realistic.

 

Also, I have a MikeCollins.Com titanium heater core filled with helium, for only $2500, if anyone wants one!

 

***Except WILDLY more "illegal" per the GCR

[Keith Andrews]

SS you're on a roll