145 replies to this topic

[Danny Steyn]

Thanks for posting this Jay

 

so far I think it is the only post from someone who is using both this season on an ongoing basis, and your post should be considered reading for those that have the influence to suggest changes

[Jim Drago]

So....I believe most guys running up front like the SM6's better but regional guys or one with less budget probably prefer the RR.  
 
~js

I think most guys running anywhere love the SM6, but I don't think there is one front runner who will tell you they enjoy buying tires. I think this is one area that all SM competitors are on the same page. No one likes buying tires.

Thank you for the info Jay, it is good to know. I have zero experience on RR tires

[Jim Drago]

Your post should be considered reading for those that have the influence to suggest changes

Danny not singling your post out.. just a place to start.

This is a BOD decision. It is not influenced by the SMAC or the CRB. The BOD are elected officials and represent you, the member! So other than potentially Collins( if he wins a BOD seat) No one else here has any influence on this decision. If you have an opinion and want it to be heard, email or call your area director before June and let them know your opinions. They represent you.
Jim

[wheel]

You need to send it to your area Director, not the Region Director.

The Area Directors are here  http://www.scca.com/about/?cid=44417

[RussMcB]

 

<snip> ... For events with the SM6, I do have to charge more since it is highly consumable.  Sounds like the SM7 will eliminate this.

 

I don't think I've heard a claim about the SM7 having a longer competitive life.  I've only heard of a different (better?) compound and stiffer sidewalls.

[Jay Stroud]

Russ - yeah...I'm just making a broad assumption.  Maybe just wishing.  I know all the tire manufacturers keep an eye on the competition and are always trying to make improvements...no different than how the new BFG "Rival" is back on top when the Dunlop Direzza's and others held that position in that segment.  I'm sure Hoosier has been made aware that most of us love the SM6 and feel it is an improvement, except for the issues that Danny and Jim have pointed out.  So...I have to think their engineers have "longer competitive life" on their improvements list.  I'm sure they're also aware of all that happened a few years back with the RA-1 and R888, and learned from their competitor's mistakes.

 

Good info on who to provide input to and the proper method.  Overall....I enjoy racing on the RR and SM6 better than the RA-1 although during their time, I couldn't complain about them...they were a good tire for the class.  What's cool is that as the technology gets better...we get to experience it first hand.  Of course...faster, longer lasting and cheaper is probably one thing everyone in SM can agree on! 

[Danny Steyn]

Danny not singling your post out.. just a place to start.

This is a BOD decision. It is not influenced by the SMAC or the CRB. The BOD are elected officials and represent you, the member! So other than potentially Collins( if he wins a BOD seat) No one else here has any influence on this decision. If you have an opinion and want it to be heard, email or call your area director before June and let them know your opinions. They represent you.
Jim

 

 

thanks Jim. I thought SMAC would have had some say, but thanks for setting me straight. Now I understand that l need to contact my regional director. I am guessing in things like this, for any changes to happen, there has to be a groundswell of support before changes are considered.

 

That being said. I am fearful of pushing for any alternate tire that I have no experience with. I love the SM6 as a tire, but hate what it costs to compete up front with it. I do NOT want to go back to shaved tires. So until I have sufficient time on several sets of RR's running against several others on RR's, my guess is that I will NOT be writing any letters, just in case I call for a tire that has another set of issues that I have no idea about. 

 

In the meantime can we get more people who have raced RR's or other tires to document their experiences. Thanks

[powerss]

I raced the RR's last year and can agree that the life is significantly better than the sm6 and it remains pretty constant throughout the life of the tire.

My experience is that I could run time very close to the sm6 with the same chassis setup.

The main difference is the feel of the tire at the limit. The RR breaks away quicker so it may be a little harder to put in consist lap times for some drivers, including me. It also talks a little more getting there.

Is there a clear date when we have to run the sm7? I have several sets of good sm6's that I need to use up.

[Parity]

I ran RR's and SM6 back to back during practice sessions this year and my experience is basically what others have said here. RR's were half second slower at NJMP Lightning for me but remain consistent much longer. RR's seem much closer to SM6 than RA1.

[Rob Burgoon]

Isn't the 205 SM6 wider than an 205 RR?

[Parity]

Yes, when you stack a set side by side the SM6 stack is a little taller.

[Brian Ghidinelli]

 

With a rental fleet of 5 SM's in the Southeast running both NASA, SCCA and track days with various groups, I hate having to manage 2 different brand of tires.  My sentiments are pretty much the same was what has been posted thus far. SM6 is faster but we're lucky to get 12-15 session out of them.  With the RR I can easily get 40.  They're not as fast, but I will often use them for SCCA test days to preserve the Hoosiers for official track time.  I can then use them for track day events when "lap times" are not as important. 

 

 

Not all sessions are created equal.

 

Driving a tire around at 8-10s off the pace or in an HPDE setting for 20 minutes at a go is dramatically different than running within 1s of pole at a 45-mile SCCA National race.  Yet, both of those count as "1 HC".  I hesitate to put any faith in these anecdotes, not because I don't think Jay is relating his actual experience or that he's running those tires for 40 HCs, but because "40 HCs" by itself is not enough information to mean anything.    

[Muda]

I think most guys running anywhere love the SM6, but I don't think there is one front runner who will tell you they enjoy buying tires.

 

Why I don't love the SM6:

 

For the first couple of heat cycles and for the first 30 minutes of a race you can basically turn the wheel and push down with the right foot.  But so can anyone else with the inclination to do so.  It makes the racing closer for that reason and it makes 25 minute sprint races much closer for that reason.  Is that the handicap we really wanted to put in place?

 

It's not that I don't like buying tires, it's just that I don't like buying so many of them and buying extra wheels to make sure that I have enough fresh ones for each qually and race (read stickers or scrubs for most of the front runners).  It's three sets for a 2-class majors weekend with a little left over for the next test day.  But I'm proud to say I'm at the pointy end of paying off Smarty's mortgage.

 

The brake zones aren't nearly as much fun any more as the Toyo's required more finesse.  But yea, it's closer.

 

There are lots of turns on lots of tracks that were tough flat with the Toyos but are now easy flat, while you're texting, on Hoos.  Funny how much your hands move and how much concentration you need when they get to 7, 8 or more heat cycles.

 

We need to go back to a tire that can offer at least TWICE the COMPETITIVE LIFE of the current SM6.  And it's going to slide, and it's going to make it tougher, and hopefully more fun and definitely a lot cheaper.

[Jim Drago]

It makes the racing closer for that reason and it makes 25 minute sprint races much closer for that reason.  Is that the handicap we really wanted to put in place?

I said this when we went to Hoosiers, it would bring the fields closer. The new Hoosiers definitely brought the fields closer ( good for the class) but at the expensive of more tires ( bad for the class)

IMO, the longer lasting(harder) we make the tire, the larger the gaps front front, mid and back pack. I agree what Muda said.. The kink at Road America on bald qualifying Ra1's was a major event every lap, hell so was turn 7 at times. While you never go through the kink without thinking about it, it is certainly much easier now on Hoosiers.

[LarryKing]

 

[Hoosier] engineers have "longer competitive life" on their improvements list

 

Longer-lasting tires = less tires sold.

 

Yea, the engineers are getting right on that.

[RussMcB]

Longer-lasting tires = less tires sold.

 

Yea, the engineers are getting right on that.

Yea, I think this is the big obstacle that is preventing us from getting what most of us would like.

 

I have used Hoosier tires for decades and would like nothing more than to continue with them (great product, great service), but how can we create an incentive for them to build a tire that will mean fewer sales? 

 

It's going to take some creative thinking.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Yea, I think this is the big obstacle that is preventing us from getting what most of us would like.

 

I have used Hoosier tires for decades and would like nothing more than to continue with them (great product, great service), but how can we create an incentive for them to build a tire that will mean fewer sales? 

 

It's going to take some creative thinking.

 

Unifying the class with one tire and Hoosier being the WINNER would be a pretty big incentive, but then there is that pesky long term deal that Nasa is already tied up in!

 

I am happy to be unified on toyo myself, although I really hate their rain tire which causes me bent sheet metal on a regular basis.

[Jim Drago]

A counter point would be .. No contract = no tire sales.

[Danny Steyn]

A counter point would be .. No contract = no tire sales.

 

And I have no doubt that this is paramount in their minds with the kind of chatter that they are hearing about. To avoid the rising level of discontent in any business is the one sure way to insure you are no longer relevant!!!

[Brocodile]

Why I don't love the SM6:

 

For the first couple of heat cycles and for the first 30 minutes of a race you can basically turn the wheel and push down with the right foot.  But so can anyone else with the inclination to do so.  It makes the racing closer for that reason and it makes 25 minute sprint races much closer for that reason.  Is that the handicap we really wanted to put in place?

 

It's not that I don't like buying tires, it's just that I don't like buying so many of them and buying extra wheels to make sure that I have enough fresh ones for each qually and race (read stickers or scrubs for most of the front runners).  It's three sets for a 2-class majors weekend with a little left over for the next test day.  But I'm proud to say I'm at the pointy end of paying off Smarty's mortgage.

 

The brake zones aren't nearly as much fun any more as the Toyo's required more finesse.  But yea, it's closer.

 

There are lots of turns on lots of tracks that were tough flat with the Toyos but are now easy flat, while you're texting, on Hoos.  Funny how much your hands move and how much concentration you need when they get to 7, 8 or more heat cycles.

 

We need to go back to a tire that can offer at least TWICE the COMPETITIVE LIFE of the current SM6.  And it's going to slide, and it's going to make it tougher, and hopefully more fun and definitely a lot cheaper.

 

Keen observations, Muda. Tire utopia does not exist. Every compound incorporates trade-offs.

 

The SM6 does not significantly change the running order, especially at the front, but it does pull the field closer together. It's true that, compared to the old Toyo, the SM6 virtually eliminates driving skill as a factor in certain turns. I haven't tried texting yet, but I have caught myself talking on the radio through Turn 12 at Road Atlanta. This did not happen on the old Toyos. As long as it is not abused and over-heated, the SM6 also is easy to manage at the limit, enabling saves which would not have occurred on a harder tire. All this is good for egos, but it comes at a price. Speaking of prices, it is my subjective impression that another form of expense - body damage - has declined somewhat since the advent of the SM6, but I would not suggest that it offsets the price of all the Hoos we're buying.

 

Personally, I don't want to revert to the Flintstones era, but I'd be fine with a harder tire, provided that the manufacturer is willing to provide ample supply and good service at the lower sales volume which will flow from longer tire life...something which should not be taken for granted. There's a level of net revenue below which it's not worthwhile for a manufacturer to provide a product or service of a given quality. It's possible a more durable tire will cause some racers to attend more events, which would at least partially offset sales volume lost due to a lower frequency of replacement, but that is impossible to predict. Otherwise, the manufacturer must make it up somewhere, which will involve some combination of higher unit price, reduced inventory ("Sorry, but that item is back-ordered"), lower quality of product, or reduced levels of service.